Well, we got the ball rolling pretty good with that last discussion, and I'm looking forward to digging into this topic and seeing what you all think. I'm not sure how to frame the question so I'll put it several different ways. This should give a sense of where I'm coming from and we'll see where it goes from there:
How do you figure out God's will for your life? How do you discern His guidance? Can you be sure you are "in the center of His will" and what does that mean?
Is there one good path for your life or several good options (maybe with one that is best and others that are acceptable)? Do you believe God has a plan for your life? If so, is it set in stone? And how do you find it? Or is it flexible within certain parameters and so you have to interact with Him and chart a course together?
Do you picture God ahead of you on a certain path waiting for you to find Him or is He behind you asking you to lean on Him?
I realize there is the potential for this to go several different directions. We could branch off into the old Calvinism/Arminianism (and Openness) thing and certainly that has to come into play, but let's not get too sidetracked, at least at first. So I'd encourage you to share how you think about this from a Scriptural/theological perspective and also to be honest about how this stuff tends to play out in your experience.
I may be sketchy on my internet access the next couple weeks as I'm in the process of moving, but I look forward very much to reading and interacing with your thoughts and experiences in this regard.
Love, Fear
67 comments:
Great question fear, though it is unanswerable. Though I guess, most of these questions aren't going to have simple or conclusive answers.
My first thoughts come naturally out of my own struggle in this arena. I used to believe that there was only one road, one person for you, one right job. I have discovered since, that there is more grace in God's will, there is more room for us to make decisions and decide what we want to do. Some times these decisions are between a godly road and sinful road but I think more often our decisions are between equally good roads.
I still do hold to the thought that at certain times in your life there is only one road, one decision that God wants you to make and will guide you to knowing that is the road to take. You still might do the opposite. But I think God, more distinctily The Holy Spirit continues to work in our lives until we make the decision that He wants us to make.
But on most of our choices there is a lot of grace.
I have similar thoughts on this matter as you do ... but i'm not sure of some of the ramifications of this view. For instance, if there is lots of grace, or leeway, in our decision making, then what is the point of "consulting" God at all? Just to avoid the sinful paths? But aren't those usually obvious? What about decisions that seem to be between two good options? Do you ask God what His will is? Wouldn't it be better to ask if He cares?
And what about when people say they really felt God telling them to do something? Playing the "God card" as it were. Do you just take their word for it? It seems like when people say that it trumps all discussion.
You know I feel much the same way as you Tuna, but I want to challenge a bit of that thinking and put it through the ringer. I'm confused a little bit. When you say there is lots of grace, do you mean leeway, or do you mean, whether we get his will bang on or not he'll still work things out for good?
There are lots more questions I have but I'll leave it at that for now since I don't want to get ahead of everyone.
Good topic. Tough one too. My big struggle with this is that if God has one path what happens when we get off of it? Does staying on it mean you'll be better off, used more by God, happier? How do we decide who's "Spirit" is right as I've witnessed Christians contradict each other and both claim that the Spirit lead them or called them etc.. Do the outcomes of doing God's will prove you really did it right or is his will to let you go down a path with a cliff sometimes?
Personally I struggle with the thought that God has one path for us or that He's even got preferences. What I know is that He's given us all gifts and with those come weaknesses and we have to daily make decisions about using our gifts or gratifying our weaknesses. It's highly probable that God's will is that we all use our gifts to bring him glory and that we constantly seek His guidance and the input of fellow believers to keep us focused on that goal.
I don't believe for a second that God gives people cancer or keeps others from it so he can "work it out for the good." He does work many things out for good but I believe he mourns over them happening in the first place. God redeems our crap but I don't think He gave us the crap.
This always brings me to the question of intervention by God because clearly he has healed some and still does today and clearly he has spoken direct instructions to others and still does today. Not many though I would suggest.
So until I hear God's voice I will continue to ask, nay beg, Him to guide my desires and ambition and gifts and in consultation with others I will make decisions. In the end I have little doubt that God's intent is for each of us to like this earth. Some do not have that privelage and I wonder if it ticks God off quite a bit more than it does me.
Great topic, Fear... and I like the comments I've seen so far. I definitely will not be up for the "Middle Road" Argument Diffuser Award in this topic.
I don't think God has a specific plan for our lives... I favor the Westminster Catechism's first Q&A as God's plan for our lives: "The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever". I think that's what God's plan is for our lives.
I would point at Adam and Eve on this one and say "what did God create them for?" (No, I'm not going with the classic "did God create them to sin?" argument.) I mean... what did they do in Eden for the time they were there? They seemed to simply live, enjoying the time, hanging out with God, naming animals, eating fruit, etc. It seemed to be just regular living (as you might imagine regular living to be in a paradise of sorts)... in communion with God. Although sin has marred that relationship and made life more difficult for us, I don't think that the general reason we're here has changed: living in communion with God.
When asked what the most important commandment was, Jesus replied that there are two: love God and love other people. Again, it sounds like he was talking about living in communion with God (and each other).
And, it seems important somehow that Jesus lived for 30 years as a carpenter before starting his ministry. Was carpentry part of God's plan for Jesus? Wouldn't a life of tireless ministry be more appropriate for someone "in God's will"? Instead, Jesus modeled what I would call the "just living" approach to God's will.
In Gethsemane, when faced with the propsect of death, Jesus cried out "not my will by yours be done"... the will to live or die, of course. Again, just regular stuff. Some might say that if Jesus was truly in the center of God's will, he woudln't need to pray that prayer. (But I wouldn't say that).
I think God's plan is to eventually restore Heaven... to restore that Eden-like communion with him. Until then, he empowers his believers to run around in their own little, busy lives and try to model that in-communion-with-God life as it is now and convince others to live it too.
Because of that, I think he lets us do what we want. (Do I need to put in a disclaimer that I mean "within the bounds of holiness"?).
On a small scale, we have the choice to wear blue pants or red pants today. (Hopefully not red pants). Neither is sin... but we also have that choice too. The ideal choice on the small scale is to live God's plan: to live in communion with him... and the red pants/blue pants becomes a non-issue. (Are there some out there who would wonder if God willed it to be a "red pants" day?... I think so).
On a bigger scale, as part of our humanity, we have aptitudes and abilities that could lend themselves to one type of occupation or interest and not to another. (Me? I'm lucky to be able to breathe both in AND out). Unfortunately, our current ideas of what spiritual gifts are lend themselves to trying to seek after God's will based on those. (Although this could be a debate for another day, I wonder if we misinterpret what spiritual gifts are... I'm not as convinced now as I was a decade ago that there are spiritual gifts in the sense that we've traditionally understood them... i.e. the ubiquitous spiritual gifts test as THE litmus test for your ability to perform a ministry, etc.... I may have to back myself up on this a little more in the future if I get called out onto the mat on it and I'm happy to do so, but for now, let's keep it at this... lest I win the "least helpful digression award"). ANYWAY even though we have those abilities and aptitudes, going against them doesn't necessarily mean that we are outside of God's will. They are part of us and could help us do well in life. But not using them doesn't mean disobedience.
I think God lets us do our own thing. He celebrates our successes, he mourns our losses... he wants to be a part of our lives.
I don't mean it to sound like we're just "putting in time" until Christ returns, but I mean that we have a world to run here: we need garbage men and waitresses and pastors and politicians to make the world go round. If we earnestly sought God's will for our lives we'd all be in danger of over-spiritualizing our calling and heading into ministry or the mission field... because how many people who search for God's will in the manner we're talking about truly believe that being a garbage man is at the center of God's will? None that I know.
Now that I've said all that, there does seem to be occasions when God breaks in and speaks. One of the challenges we have is that we don't have a lot of good Scriptural content to go on for how to deal with the idea of God's plan in our lives because the Bible is full of accounts of God's direct and clear intervention in the lives of those depicted. On a global scale, the amount that God actually speaks is small... but our faith is based on a small sampling of people, most of whom DID hear God clearly.
To summarize my argument, in case it's not clear: to be "in the center of God's will" is to live our life in a way that pleases God: to relentlessly pursue holiness while doing what we want.
Okay, I've said all that but there's still a part of me that wonders if there's not something else. It's hindsight that's speaking when I look at my own experiences and I wonder if I would have made the same decisions had God not been there. Frankly, there are key times in my life (but this blog is not the place to get into them) where I was taking one route and suddenly I found myself pulled in a different direction. Sometimes those experiences were holiness/unholiness issues, but other times they were not: they were simple, regular parts of life in which a decision was clearly made for me. (Interestingly enough, the two times that spring to mind as I write this were NOT times that I was fervently praying to be in God's will and yet they turned out to put me on a different road that, in hindsight, was the better choice). I enjoy success today on many levels and look back and thank God for his work in my life to get me here.
Maybe I'll post this and come back later after I've read about it some more. I just wanted to weigh in. And I weighed a lot.
Trembling, from what I remember of you, you don't weigh much at all.
I'd like to hear you expand on your digression about spiritual gifts. I loved your comment about how people who fervently seek the one path don't end up satisfied becoming the garbage man.
Here's something I've thought about a billion times since my CBC days. How many people were there studying for four years to go into ministry because they had the "call?" My memory is that is was the vast majority of them. How many of them simply convinced themselves they had been called into ministry because it seemed to be the most spiritual path? I think at least a few. My point is that I think there may have been a few people at CBC who missed their calling to be garbage men, or women.
Wow, great topic Mr. Fear. Mr. Trembling you clearly weigh in excess of 20 stone.
I think as far as discerning God's will for our lives I find myself on the same bandwagon as you gentleman. I don't think his plan it is as specific and detailed as we are often pressured to believe.
As for facing a choice between two great options, as Mr. Fear said, I don't think we need to be too concerned about hearing direction in our prayers. I think God is more pleased that we would just involve Him/Her in the decision making process. We have been God-given an intellect, strengths/weaknesses, community, etc... in order to inform our decision making process. For my part, if God wanted us to bring all our decisions before him and expect to receive detailed instruction then there would be little reason for us to have all those giftings I just listed above.
Again Mr. Fear, good comment on the whole God card phenomenon. I have had this card pulled on me in the past as well I'm sure i've prolly used it to get out of some sticky situations myself. I definitely am pretty skeptical about whether the God-card players have in reality recieved any definite instruction from the good Lord, or whether it was just intuition, wisdom, discernment, butterflies in the stomach, or simple preference that informed their decision. However, assuming we are living in communion with God, our intuition, wisdom, discernment, etc... is going to be informed and influenced by that very relationship. So I guess you could say that the God-card might be somewhat legitimate, at least indirectly.
As for the one path/will theory...as a hopeless romantic I love it, but always at the back of my mind I get the feeling I'm chasing a pipe dream. So when it comes down to it I would agree with Mr. Tanti in that God's will for our lives is likely not very specific other than his desire for community with us.
The very idea that God might "give" a person cancer or scurvy or something just grates on me. However, as I look through scripture, especially OT, it is littered with stories and situations where God has acted directly to meat out punishment on his disobedient people. I think our generation is often guilty of emphasing mercy and grace at the expense of judgment and justice. I know "christians" today often get roasted in the press for claiming that God caused september 11th to happen in order to punish the US for putting out trampy movies, or hurricane Katrina was sent as retribution for the decadence and debauchery of Mardi Gras, etc... To me this is the height of Spiritual Arrogance to claim that a specific tragic event was direct punishment from God for sin. We must NEVER state it as a certainty, but I think we have to always acknowledge at least the possibility.
We spent alot of time on this in my OT502 class last fall, very interesting stuff, but something that I found grated very hard on my own conception of God's character.
I've got lots to post on this topic in case i have opened a can of worms here.
The "Call" is something I don't really understand. I have never received one. And I may be a cynic, but when I hear stories of people's "calling" experience I usually chalk it up to the heightened emotion of a good worship service or sermon or something or the twenty-seventh repetition of the chorus of "just as I am". This is not to say that I don't think some of them are legit. Having grown up in the so-called mission field I have experienced first hand some pretty crazy situations and stories of God's direct intervention in lives to direct their decision making process or career choice or whatever.
As for bible colleges I agree with Mr. Tanti in that I'm sure that there is a good portion of people there because they didn't know what else to do, or didn't feel any specific direction and so made the seemingly spiritual choice. I don't mean to devalue a bible college eductation here at all, I think its often just a back up plan for people. But I'm sure its probably a great environment to discover your skillset and giftings.
Great topic Mr. Fear
Wankel
I suspect that people WANT to think that God has a plan for our lives simply because it's easier. I think they want this for two reasons:
1. In their minds, the opposite view (the "no plan" view) calls into question God's sovereignty.
2. The feeling that you are in God's will helps to assuage the questions and fears that we have about taking action and puts a greater spiritual emphasis on our decisions.
Here's my thinking on these points:
1. I think that a no-plan view actually enhances God's sovereignty rather than diminishes it. After all, if God can work in and around and through us WHILE we make decisions that sometimes go contrary to logic or to his Word, well, that makes him pretty darn good.
2. I think we want to feel like our lives have significance. Of course they do, but we get a greater sense of spiritual significance if we think we are in God's will when we make a choice. As well, life is scary and sometimes it's easier to put the blame on someone else. If things don't work out it's now because it was God's will rather than the circumstances or our own efforts.
The call issue is interesting. I was certainly one of those people who thought I felt the call to ministry. But here's a very brief version of my experience: I was wandering around spiritually and was really unsure about my future from a career perspective, too. One night I prayed (and I hadn't prayed in a while) and asked God to help give me some guidance. The next day I woke up with a very clear sense to go to Bible college. Lots of people asked if this was a call to ministry. I didn't know very many people who went to Bible college and those who did were in ministry, so I said yes. It was somehow "confirmed" by my abilities and gifts and I found myself enrolled in a BTh with an aim to go into ministry. Let's pause here for a moment and say that Bible college was not really an option on my mind much before that so it stands in my mind as a very clear experience where God broke in and made it happen. It wasn't a second choice for me... until then, I don't think it was a choice at all. On my own, I would not have ended up there. It was an incredible experience for several reasons, including a call back to pursuing God, and in my 3rd year I realized that I didn't have to go into ministry... I could do other things. Which is what I chose. It was around then that I started to think a lot about the call... and at the same time, spiritual gifts.
We look at lists of gifts in the Bible and most of us would agree that the gift lists are not comprehensive. So I'm not sure who it is that decides, but in many of the spiritual gift tests I've done included the gifts listed in the Bible plus the gifts of prayer, singleness, and martyrdom. Seemed like strange additions to me. To add more confusion to the mix, some of the gifts seem to be ongoing gifts to be practised all the time (hospitality) while others are very specific (healing). I wonder if we are not over-spiritualizing this stuff. Everyone (believers and nonbelievers) have talents and skills and I think it's no coincidence that my talents appear as "spiritual gifts" on the gift tests I've taken. What's more, I'd say that writing is a talent (maybe not but that's how I pay my bills) so why isn't it on the list? There are Christian writers. Also, the spiritual gifts tests I've taken smell an awful lot like aptitude tests with a God-spin in their question formats. I've also grown sick of churches using these tests as one of the strict measures of whether or not a believer can practice a ministry. I wonder if we might consider all of our talents and skills, once we become believers, to be "spiritual gifts" in the sense that a good God has given them and now that we're believers we can appreciate them and we can use them to glorify him and bring others to him. I would also agree that (at times) God might grant an extra something to someone when it suits his needs: tongues at Pentecost, administration by Saint Peter... but let's add the spiritual gift of running by Elijah!
Here are a couple other things about spiritual gifts to think about: Does Billy Graham have the spiritual gift of evangelism? His gift test might say yes but I think it's the Holy Spirit. (I would guess that he would say the same thing). And what about women who have the spiritual gift of preaching? In some denominations, that would be inconceivable.
I'm afraid that I've come to believe that God's will, the call, and spiritual gifts are an over-spiritualization of things in our lives.
Seeking out God's will is one way that we try to answer our own internal feelings of success, failure, or unsettledness about a situation. It strikes me that we assume that success is living in God's will, and failure or unsettledness is an indication otherwise. I don't think that's the case but am I wrong in suspecting that most people would use that as a measure of being in or out of God's will?
Great discussion so far, it has me rethinking my position, or least clarifing it. Often when we seek God's will we are asking about a certain occupation, or spouse. We want God to tell us to be a lawyer, doctor, or pastor but I don't think those titles mean as much to God as they do to us. God cares more about who we are, how we use the gifting we have been given, spiritual or other.
Also, I am concerned that logic becomes the trump card in our discernment process. Often God asks us to do what is illogical. He tells us to jump off a cliff when we don't have a parchutte. Logic is a gift from God, we should use it but we need to be open to listening to our Father. Trembling I am glad that when you prayed you got an anwer that gave you guidance but I am worried about the Chrisitian who isn't having devotions, isn't regularly talking to God. That person decides to pray and seek guidance and expects to make life altering decisions based on a single prayer. Yes God does work that way, but I would perfer if that person took some time and contiuned on in communication with God over a little while. Sometimes those brief interactions are important and life changing but I think often we misunderstand what the Holy Spirit is saying. Or we impose our wishes, onto the prayer we are having. Not to pick on Trembling but I wonder what followed that time where God intervened in your life. Did it cause you to spend more time with God or less? I do believe you made the right decision, and I more than most thank God for it, but I am concerened that once we think we have heard from God we fall back into old patterns when it comes to our devotionals and prayer life.
Very good points, Tuna. Let me address your last point first: That moment where I prayed and felt some very clear direction in my life was a very significant turning point. I started going back to church and seeing it with new eyes (which solved an earlier struggle of mine which led me away from regular attendance), I read my Bible with newfound fervor and began to memorize Hebrews, I volunteered to be a camp counseller at a Christian camp and at some Billy Graham dealie, my prayer life improved, etc. There were about 8 months between that first prayer and my arrival at CBC. As you well know about me, I jumped in with both feet once this event occured. It really was a life-changing event for me but I do hear your concern and certainly wouldn't recommend it as a regular practice for people. Also, to be fair, I wasn't praying for clarification of God's will for my life but rather I was calling out of the depths of despair about an uncertain future and asked God for help. That's somehow different to me. I can't help but think that there are moments when God breaks in to someone's life even when they hadn't sought him at all (Paul, for one. I like to think Melchizedek is in this camp, too, but we can't be sure).
I really like what you mentioned about the parachute/cliff illustration. Very good point. God does call us to do the illogical, but I wonder if our "seeking God's will for our lives" ends up searching for the part the feels good or gives us the greatest sense of peace. How often to seekers of God's will say "wow, I really don't want to do this crappy thing because it's awful, but I will anyway because it's God's will"? My thinking is that Hosea or Ezekiel might have "sought God's will" and ended up NOT doing the crazy and difficult things they were directed to do because they didnt't get a sense of peace from it.
I'm afraid logic isn't the trump card, but rather our sense of ease.
If I led you to think that having garbageman skills should logically lead to being a garbageman (thus circumventing a possible illogical direction from God), I'm sorry. That's not where I was going. I would suggest that someone whose life REALLY IS at the center of God's will (which is the ongoing and passionate pursuit of holiness) should fairly easily discern God's direction to do some of these things, including the difficult and illogical. Compare that to the person who believes they are trying to comprehend God's will and the result is something that gives them the greatest sense of feeling at ease with their situation.
If that doesn't make sense, please let me know.
Great conversation Tuna/Trembling. I tend to make the conclusion that Trembling hesitates to make, that if you love garbageman things and are great at it you should probably be a garbageman. If the idea of going to Africa makes you want to puke and hate life you're probably not "called" to go there. The influence of the teachings of Christ are needed everywhere so why shouldn't we do what we're good at and what brings us fulfillment and enjoyment and then strive be Christ there?
I'm not sure what this does for the Moses example of not wanting to do what God expressly told him to do. Though I would venture a guess that very few people are being spoken to by God in an audible voice coming out of a burning bush and if they were they would be more prone to obey. I'm a big believer in obeying God, I just have my doubts that He's calling very many people to do something they hate.
I think one of my great annoyances is the pressure youth and Bible College students are put under to go into "missions" when Canada is one of the world's biggest mission fields as far as I'm concerned. If missions is where you want to be and where you're gifted to be and feel "called" to be then so be it but this idea that everyone should do missions overseas is rubbish to me.
Sorry for the sidetrack there, I'm not implying that any of you were saying that about missions, just seemed like a relevant example.
God just told me to get back to work so I'll end this post for now.
The sermon this weekend focused on Jonah. How does that fit into our paradiagms? Jonah does the exact opposite of God's will and God does whatever it takes to get Jonah to do what he asked him. Does this mean that I can do what I want and God will bring me around in the end? Probably not, but it does make me think that God continually gives us opportunties to get back on track with his will, and I am thankful he does. But I wonder how many opportunties we miss because we don't do the minor thing he asks of us. Like talking to a perfect stranger. I believe God gives us numerous chances to get back on track but I also believe as a church we are missing out on a ton of minor, incendital ways of accomplishing God's will.
I don't know if I see it that way. I hear what you're saying Tuna but I would go crazy if I worried about every stranger and every conversation and whether God is calling me to do something. I believe we're called to strive to be like Christ and to constantly ask the Spirit to guide us. If a conversation starts naturally I will have it. If I'm in the mood to be left alone I don't think I should need to worry about the stranger on the bus I didn't talk to, and if God really wants to change my or someone else's life by having us meet I trust that He'll take care of it.
I realize that this line of thinking is quite dependant upon me being "in tune" with God and communing with Him regularily though as in your Jonah example Tuna sometimes even when we try our best to avoid God He is still capable of grabbing hold of us.
There are times when God breaks in and tells someone to do something. That's not in doubt and we can look beyond Jonah to many people in the Bible to see God's intervention in their lives.
When God breaks into his created order and makes a statement to someone, that's clearly God's will for their life. They'd better do it. If they don't, they may face shipwrecks and storms and big fish and hot winds, etc.
But then there's the rest of us.
Aside from Jonah, how many other people at the time were living their day-to-day lives making a living, working at a job, raising a family, paying the bills, etc. In essence, being what we're calling "the garbagemen" on this blog. They, too, SHOULD have been following God's will but it wasn't written about because their lives were just regular stuff. For them, because God didn't break through the created order to give them direction, his will is to pursue holiness, share the good news of God with others, be kind one to another, practice mercy, love, and anticipate the messiah's return.
I suppose he could have made them all prophets and sent them out to parts unknown but he didn't. (Otherwise, why give them the promised land, right?).
As for God's specific will, only one tribe was given jobs related to the temple, and there were a handful of prophets. The rest of the good folks in Israel did the mundane jobs that need to get done to make life work.
So, were these people living in God's will? My position has been that if God doesn't break though and tell them to go do something specific then they only have limited guidance to go on: what they like to do, what they're good at, etc. Since we're created by God, and our skills and abilities are gifts from him, we can safely assume that's generally what he wants us to do. I also feel that people unfortunately gauge God's will by their feelings of ease and happiness so that if they feel ill at ease about something they begin to sense that God is trying to tell them something. Perhaps he is (although I think a closer walk with God can tell you something more clearly than a feeling of ill at ease... perhaps it was yesterday's spicy burrito that's making you feel ill at ease). So feeling ill at ease, they look to God for guidance on his will when (my feeling is) it's bigger and usually less specific than we think. I hope I don't alienate myself on this blog but I think that people who seek God's will for their lives (when he hasn't broken in and said: "go to Ninevah") run the risk of taking the path of least resistance to diminish that sense of uneasiness.
scabbard
At the risk of being given the "Middle Road" Argument Diffuser Award I will say that I think it is impossible to know whether someone is acting on their own ambition, God's will or both. I agree that direct intervention happened to very few even in the Bible and that most of us just need to do what we're good at and want to do while communing with God and other believers.
I used to love a quote by Oswald Chambers which went something like this:
“The majority of us do not enthrone God, we enthrone common sense. We make our decisions and then ask the real God to bless our god's decision.” – Oswald Chambers
I think now that Oswald missed the point a little. He fails to define how we know the difference between God's decision and our own decision or why they should even be different.
As the old Yiddish proverb says: “God will provide - ah, if only He would till He does!”
Hey fellows,
Great discussion going on thus far.
Mr. Tanti I liked your Chambers quote and the comment about the ambiguity in it. I am curious about all the people that are "enthroning common sense"; my feeling is that alot of them, myself included, are under the impression at least that they are enthroning God even when common sense has the reigns. Granted, the works and thoughts of God as revealed in scripture often go against the grain of our common sense; but I still like to think of my common sense as a God-given attribute.
So I'm thinking that Chambers' seems to assume common sense and God to be contradictory, which is definitely SOMETIMES the case. The Christ in scripture sure did some things that I thought were off the wall. However, i think most of the time how God reveals himself makes plenty of sense to me. But maybe our common sense has been informed by our years of faith.
Also, is there something so terribly wrong about making our own decisions and then asking God to bless them. Assuming of course we have made good use of our God-given discernment and wisdom. Though was it really my own decision then?
I'd like to hear more from Mr. Fear on the topic.
Mr. Tanti, congratulations on your Topol award too.
lobster bisque
This topic has slowed down a bit, maybe because we're all on a similar page here. Here's a question though:
How do we test the Spirit? I know the Bible tells us to test the Spirit by scripture but I hear so many people justify their interpretation of a given passage by saying the Spirit lead them to that belief. So now they're testing the Spirit with their own reading of Scripture which is informed by their impression of the Spirit's leading on their reading of Scripture which doesn't get us anywhere in my estimation.
I think there are good and bad ways to interpret the Bible. Maybe not black/white or right/wrong but bad, ok, good and best ways. My Mark Boda bias leads me to believe that good interpretation considers all "3 dimensions" of the Bible.
Here's what I'm getting at, when my orthopraxy contradicts someone else's orthopraxy and we both get our way of living from our reading of the Bible and our attempt to follow the leading of the Spirit in our lives, where does that leave us? For example, when I tell someone it isn't our role on this earth to be the morality police, that's how I read the Word and the life and teachings of Jesus. Yet many well-intentioned Christians, who read the same Bible and pray to the same God and are lead presumabely by the same Spirit, will tell me that they feel called to be a voice of conviction on this world. This comes into play in my profession as many Christians are in politics for very different reasons and I find myself disagreeing most passionately on political issues with other Christians.
Anyway, I've rambled. Any thoughts? I know this isn't quite on topic but it's in the same arena of what we were talking about and the God's call debate seems to have dried up.
I was at the chiropractor the other day and he said my orthopraxy was way out of alignment. He made some adjustments and I'm feeling a lot better now.
Tanti, I think you've come up with a good direction in the conversation. The topic was slowing down and I'm afraid that I had contributed to it with excessive typing. I may have talked the topic to death. However, I'm going to be typing more here:
I can't think of a great response to your question as this is an area that I think about a lot with very little conclusion.
I am definitely NOT convinced that the ubiquitous "fleece" method (a la Gideon) is an example we are supposed to follow. I don't think that story made its way into Judges because it's a model we're supposed to follow, which is a thought that runs contrary to most teaching today. The "signs" believers see as indicators of the spirit's movement may not be the spirit's movement (it may, true, but it may not) and we end up with the same cheap coincidences that make fortune tellers popular. ("Someone with an 'e' in their name will be giving you something in the next 12 months.")
The easy answer is to test the Spirit against the fruit of the spirit, but even that can be wide open to interpretation. (What we might consider judgmental morality, for example, could be interpreted by some as tough love by others). So I'm not a big fan of the easy answer, although it has its part in the process.
Sometimes I think that since God is much bigger than we can comprehend, somehow the viewpoints we see as opposed to each other are perhaps not always so. But I realize that is a borderline cop-out answer but often the place I end up in when I'm thinking about this question.
I'm afraid that too often Spirit-testers do their discernment in a vacuum: on their own with Bible in hand. Rather, the community needs to play a role; we should have mentors and friends to work through our thoughts with. But is the community aspect similar to the middle road argument diffuser? Of course we'd all agree that the community should be involved. I dont want to kill the conversation based on playing the community card.
Taking the community one step further, I wonder if the role of church elders and leaders should not play a greater part in our lives than it currently does. From Moses, through the Levites, and into the NT with the Jerusalem council, it seems to me like the church leadership had a greater role in this area than they do today. Perhaps it's part of our modern individualism or maybe just a facet of protestantism. I think that beyond the community, we should be involving our elders and leaders in decisions where we are supposed to be testing the spirit.
I say, bring back the Urim and Thummim!
Great point Trembling. I have also been thinking about the role of the church in our decision making. It should not be the only test but I belief we should take life changing decisions before our fellow believers to hear what they have to say. This is completely against our western nature of being individuals. I don't think every decision we make needs to be approved by the church, but it should be a more pratical part of testing and confirming God's will. It could be you are the only one God is speaking to and the rest of the church are wrong but I doubt that would occur very often. We need to move away from being to self focused to being community focused.
I've always held to the belief that I am the only one God is speaking to and everyone else is wrong.
Okay, kidding.
What do you think about the role of drawing lots (and casting Urim & Thummim) from the Old Testament? Is there a place for that today? If not, why not?
Well folks, I sure have been anxious to get back here but have been "offline" as you might say. have wanted to weigh in on this discussion though. i tried to send morse code to you all but doubt you got it. tried telepathy too. did anyone have a great urge for a BLT on Wednesday at around 4 pm? Anyway, I had a lot of reading to do to catch up and now will try to be brief in my thoughts.
i think we all come out somewhat similar on this, with the possible exception of tuna who seems, correct me if i'm wrong, a little uneasy with teh "willy-nilly-ness" of the "just living unless you hear otherwise approach", as am i. (that's a simplification but hear me out)
I think God wants to direct us if we'll listen, and has a plan, but his plan at various times or others is more or less specific. it is the communion with him, yes, that is most important, but our communion with God implies He is Lord, not us, and Lordship implies Mastery does it not? So how do we know he's guiding us and how specifically. I think you know if you seek and listen. I think Gideon's fleeces were trying to tell us something and that is taht it is worth it to check and even double check with God, and I actually love what teh Alpha dude said about following God's guidance: 5 C's, but I can't remember them!
Basically. teh Bible tells us a lot already. The Spirit weighs in huge. Our respected friends are an instrumetn of God's direction (but we need more than just yes-men). Our Common Sense. And Circumstances (or open doors we like to call them).
None of these is the trump card but a life lived loving God (obeying, seeking holiness, the Word etc), others (community), and even oneself (get in touch with your God-given passions and gifts and talents and see it as honouring him to use them) should get you on teh right path.
I think we put a lot of emphasis on doing what seems natural until God says otherwise, and I agree, but I think it is avoiding the issue to say that since it still matters how much we are listening to teh Spirit. If we aren't or haven't been then it takes a crisis (ie Jonah, trembling, and myself many times) to get back. thank God for those gracious crises. If we are communing and listening well and all the 5 C's are in place then it may feel more "natural" you know?
i agree that often God's direction is NOT the path of least resistance and so teh "opne doors"
thing can be a cop out if its all we got.
the God card is legit. we have to trust others and not judge them when they use it. But it isn't a trump card for all discussion. I expect if we looked to Christian leaders and friends more in our direction-getting we'd hear from God more and have better community. Individualism has become the reeky stench of Western Evangelicalism and we need another Reformatino in that regard if you ask me. We've gone way past what Luther had in mind.
i agree with trembling about spiritual gifts, but think some people really need help finding them and so the inventories are good. I have problems with basing too much on them though but not because it is over spritualizing but underspiritualizing! when we limit what God wants us involved in to what we get a good score on then we are cutting teh Spirit out of a lot of our lives. however, i think these inventories are mostly, and sadly, just trying to get the 80% in our churches who do NOTHING to do SOMETHING for Gods' sakes!
i think a lot of peoplpe are asking God to guide them and he's saying "Dude (yes He talks like that) its in the Word. I don't care if you buy a Chevy or a Ford. Buyt the Ford. Whatever. You are so off base with most of what you want, I'll guide you in this if it will help you get on a roll listening to me and obeying, but mostly I am hoping you'll get on board with teh Great Commission and Commandments. Can't wait til you get the point on that stuff, then we'll have something worth getting worked up over."
Sorry I'm cynical. Hope you get my point.
I actually think God cares about our smallest decsions and will even guide us if we want him to on whether to wear the red pants or not. (He usually tells me no, except for a brief stint in the 80s, I don't know why) But I think most people avoid His actual calling and stop at minor stuff.
yes I believe in callings. But you can't summon them up and they take persistence in narrowing down. And I think you may have several, or an evolving calling, but its there. I have been called against my will several times and so I either am self-flagellationally inclined or God does step in and do the Jonah thing nowadays.
One last thing for now before I'm offline again, moving this weekend!
The Urim and Thummim are a LAST RESORT, and you better have done your homework first, and then, if you still can't decide, go ahead and roll 'em. But I think if they come up and what they say don't seem right .... then there's your answer!
couple more things.
when i say God calls me against my will, what ends up happening is that my will becomes His. in other words, i find i end up wanting what i didn't want before. The Lord of the path can also move my heart. So I think I support tanti's argument that you pray to ask God to shape your will, not necessarily to just show you THE path, although I think there is both.
i hope my post made sense. I was trying to be brief, and quick, and may have become incomprehensible. While I'm offline I grant tonytanti the right of interpretation.
by the way, when i say the God-card is legit I mean we have to trust people when they say God is guiding them and we have no biblical reason to believe otherwise. I don't think it precludes discussion though. I think anyone who has told me this should be prepared to also have me ask how they know this. This accomplishes several things:
1) i am involved in their decision and will either be their biggest supporter, or a refiner of their resolve
2) they have to think it through, maybe even consider some questions they haven't thought of
3) i am wiser regarding the decision making process because i got to be part of someone else's
Drawbacks and abuses are inherent in this of course. I don't think everyone has to answer to everyone else, or me, but i think many miss the role of community in their lives.
And I'm sorry, but the community-card is not the "middle road." In my opinion it is extreme, because the church today is so individualistic. Even our idea of community is an ice breaker and a bunch of people bandying about ideas about a passage of Scripture or Rick Warren at arms length for a half hour before praying for their friend's dog who has cervical cancer. actually. that's pretty good community to be honest. sadly i think many who go to church don't even get that. They settle for a 2 minute conversation in a church foyer every couple weeks.
OH boy have I digressed. And shown my cynicism yet again.
I just think we are way off if we think we are supposed to be "fly-by-nighters" in this direction thing. But I wouldn't go so far as CBC of the 80s where you had to ask for permission to date. (although i'm sure it saved many a mistake!)
one last thing: the God-card cannot be played to get someone to do something. It is not playable by a third party. A close friend or Christian leader may sense God urging them to in turn urge me in a certain direction but I believe if God wants to do that He'll instruct them to do it in a way that doesn't amount to me having to take their word for it.
I, like the unit and tanti, am perturbed at those who try to play the God-card on their nation, as a reason to go to war, or put up a poster of the 10 commandments, or get teh principal to pray at the flagpole, or whatever. Such stuff makes me sick.
However, and here we are digressing again I suppose, I think we are wrong if we think God wants us to stay out of politics and social concerns altogether. In fact, maybe God wants the church to be a pain in the nation's craw once in awhile ....
Okay, now you all have about as much reading as I had to do. hopefully i've given fodder to keep us going to September.
trembling, your turn for the september topic?
I think it is unfare for Fear to take such a long time off and then post. It makes him out to be mucher wiser then he really is. It's like when you are having a discussion with a group of people and there is one person who is following along but not stating his point and then when the conversation is concluding he takes that time to divulge what he believes. It may be crap but because he has been silent for so long your ears perk up to hear what he is going to finally say. Actually I liked a lot of what Fear had to say but I just wanted to take a cheap shot, that's my style.
Fear, I'm sorry for the confusion on something I said... you wrote, 'And I'm sorry, but the community-card is not the "middle road.' In my opinion it is extreme, because the church today is so individualistic."
Just to clarify, I agree with you completely that individualism is the "reeky stench of Western Evangelicalism". Well put.
When I talked about the community being like the middle road argument diffuser I was suggesting that needs to play an important part in our decisions but by suggesting that I was afraid of diffusing the conversation with a point that we generally agree on... similar to the middle road argument.
If God calls us more frequently than I have suggested earlier in the blog, what types of things does he call us to do?
The church puts a lot of emphasis on big picture callings to sacred tasks (ministry, missions). Do people get "called" to do profane/mundane things (like be garbagemen)?
It's hard for me to think that my career is a calling. I love what I do, I have no doubt that it's EXACTLY what God wants me to do, and I can point to several God-influenced events throughout my life that have got me to this point... but does that make it a calling?
I don't want to get into too many personal details on the blog but some of you know that my first attempt at writing for a career didn't work out. Was I NOT called to be a writer then? (I balk at that thought because of the years leading up to it that clearly suggested I should write). After the first failed attempt, I got a job that I could tolerate and did fairly well at. Was I called for a time to that job or was my calling still to write? Now I'm writing again and this time my writing career is more successful. The non-writing job I merely tolerated is a big contributor to today's writing success.
So... if my career is indeed a calling, have I always been called to be a writer (based on the types of skills and interests God gave me)? As you can tell, this is a huge influencer in my opinion on God's will for our life.
Was I called away from writing for a time to a job I merely tolerated in order to pay the bills and give me the additional skills I needed?
I'm definitely willing to move on the point of what a call is and when and how often we receive it but perhaps my view is colored by observing a greater emphasis on sacred callings and a misguided emphasis on the little, tiny red pants/blue pants "callings" that people "get" from God.
I also don't want to run the risk of only drawing from my experience as the marker for everyone else's life but my experiences have played such a huge role in my thinking on this matter so I'm really glad we're having this conversation.
And as I write this, I've got more things I'm thinking about. Is there a difference between God's will for our lives and God's calling on our lives? Is God's will for our lives general and his calling specific? Does God have a will for everyone and a calling only for some? Would we say that the modern church considers sacred tasks to be a calling and profane tasks to be God's will?
Okay, I've asked an awful lot of questions and I could keep typing.
Been camping for a few days, am back now, typing incomplete sentences like Yoda talks am I.
Fear, it took me two sessions to read through all your stuff and it was worth it.
I'd be surprised if God cares even a little bit about your red pants but He might care that you care and thereby help out. He is gracious and kind. I remember I used to pray for the Canucks to win before every game when I was young. Now I don't. I don't think God ever cared whether they won, He might have smiled at me for my silly prayer or been sad that I was wasting my time but I hope He didn't intervene and give the Blues the flu.
I like the distinction you've made trembling between God's call and His will. I think His will for all of us is the same, Great Commandment and Great Commission, and I don't know if He has a call for many of us. Like you my personal experience has shaped my struggles in this arena and I've seen people carry out what they think is their call and fall on their face. The hardest to watch are the ones who don't realize they've fallen on their face.
Maybe success isn't the only evidence of correctly identifying one's calling though.
I don't believe in one path but I do believe we should always be moving and listening and doing. Maybe trembling was right the first time with the attempt at writing but didn't get the luck and was able to make connections in the job he tolerated to have another go at the writing career. Yeah I said it, luck. I believe in luck. Many a person has asked the cliche question "why do bad things happen to good people" but I've seen way more examples of good things happening to bad people and that makes me believe in luck because I can't find any other way to explain why God would will that.
Wow, very interesting. Thanks for the compliment on the will/call difference, Tanti. I confess it was a middle-of-the-paragraph inspiration and I just kept running with. It seemed to make sense as I typed.
Also, I agree that success is not the only way of identifying a calling... I was just talking about my own experience and questions that obviously came up after the first failed attempt (i.e., "God, why did you give me a passion to write but take away the opportunity?").
Tanti, just a quick question to clarify: Do you believe in chance or in luck? And I'd separate the two by saying chance has probabilities to turn up good or bad while luck has the likelihood of turning up good (for people with "good luck") and bad (for people with "bad luck"). It seemed like you meant luck, but I wasn't sure.
Tuna, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this because, if I recall correctly, you believe you're luckier than most (which means I think you're on crack).
Hey Fellows,
Sorry about the lack of input from my end of things, I've been out of town for the last week and a half.
But hopefully I can make up for some of that absence here.
Interesting thing about the distinction between "will" and "calling". I like the differences propsed, however I would have applied each to the other word, just semantics though I guess.
It's also interesting to think of all the things we learn and experience that we acquire through jobs and careers that we don't necessarily consider to be our "calling"; yet when we do finally reach the place where we are doing something we fee we were meant to do, that knowledge and experience becomes invaluable. This idea is my main reason for believing "calling" to be less specific than we often think.
Also, are we assuming a single calling for our lives. Or do we have different vocations for different periods of our lives?
DRC, I'm looking forward to hearing your defence of luck and getting yourself into some hot water, for as Chesterton says "I believe in getting into hot water; it keeps you clean."
(I realize that was a shameless attempt at securing the GKC trophy for a second week.)
Also, I thought I would tell you all about a little experience I had yesterday.
I'm currently in a small town called Belfast on the atlantic coast of Maine and I ran across a completely surreal sight; an older white guy, wearing a huge turban, and driving a pimped out Escalade.
Maybe I'm a bigot, but I thought that was the craziest thing. But who am I to question his calling.
To answer trembling's question, if I understood the distinction you're making between chance and luck I think I meant more the idea of chance. Though to me the two are very similar.
I think there is a large element of the goings on in this world that are not caused by God or the Devil but just happen. Some good people have a disproportionate amount of bad happen to them and as I said the bigger struggle for me is that some bad people have a disproportionate amount of good happen to them.
In giving this some further thought though I realized that I am mostly referring to "good things happening" as being success in ones career. It occurs to me though that many people who are wealthy due to success in work and a string of good fortune aren't necessarily happy or successful in life.
My ideas on chance/luck have more to do with the fact that some people go through life with very little suffering whereas others have much. I know Mother Teresa believed God allowed more suffering on those that could handle it but I don't know that I've ever seen a correlation between suffering and strength. I think that by pure chance in a fallen world some people get cancer and some don't and I can see that God is capable of redeeming the bad and the Devil is capable of causing the bad but I would guess that most times neither of them caused it.
Tanti, thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure. I don't know that I believe in luck but I do believe in chance (as I differentiate them, at least), but I agree that for some people the coin seems to turn up heads more often than for other people. That's why I'm interested in hearing what Tuna would have to say on this issue because I think he believes the coin will turn up heads for him more often.
As or the good things happening to bad people, there is so much happening in that concept it's really hard to look at objectively. I've been thinking a lot about this since you've mentioned it and this is what I've been thinking about: What is good? (You later clarified success in business). What is bad? Is a "bad" person a nonChristian? Is a "bad" person someone who is actively unethical? By the same token, is a good person a Christian or an ethical person? Is the success of a bad person earned at the expense of others? Is the lack of success of a good person held back because of morals? Is the lack of success of a good person reduced because good people also spend their time doing charitable works, making friends, improving the world? Do good things happen to bad people because the prince of this world is trying to entice believers away from the eternal? (That one depends on your definition of good and bad, I guess). On the other hand, do equal amounts of bad and good happen to both types of people but bad people say "S**t happens" and shrug it off while good people say "this is my lot in life or punishment from God for sin or God's will so I'll accept it". Does God allow more bad things to happen to good people because it's a chance for him to show his grace?
My observation is that people who are successful in life tend to overcome obstacles while people who are not successful in life become quite content in their obstacle. (I hope that made sense).
I realize there's a lot of questions here, but that's what I've been thinking about the last couple days since you posted your first thoughts about good/bad things happening to bad/good people. Thanks for making me think about this issue.
I also loved the last sentence of your last post: "I think that by pure chance in a fallen world some people get cancer and some don't and I can see that God is capable of redeeming the bad and the Devil is capable of causing the bad but I would guess that most times neither of them caused it." I definitely have to agree with you on this one. It's the principle of raining on the righteous and unrighteous. The real mark of your faith (or lack thereof) doesn't depend so much on whether or not bad things happen but what hope you have and your response is when it does happen.
This conversation has me thinking a lot about why I enjoy what I think to be a fairly successful and trouble-free life while good family friends from the church I grew up in seem to hit day after day with bad health and not just colds and flus but serious stuff. They tragically lost one daughter to (cancer I think). So why did they get everything (it seems) and for me, the coin turns up heads? One of the things that's been on my mind is that we are all hit hard in this fallen world. That family has serious physical conditions. I, on the other hand, have a variety of problems that you may not see on the surface (perhaps I'm some kind of psycho). At the end of the day, we're all sick and it just plays out in different ways. I don't know if that's true or not but it's something I've been thinking about in relation to your thoughts.
Trembling, great dialogue. Thanks for thinking out loud (or in print) with me. I agree that it rains on everyone and that we all have our problems, whether surface or hidden, but I would still say that some have bigger obstacles than others. I think you'd agree with that. I certainly don't count myself as one with big obstacles, my life hasn't been the easiest but compared to most of the rest of the world I am rich and healthy. I think of the Caste system in India where you're born pretty much knowing exactly what your life is going to be like and I am grateful for the opportunities I have.
Let me go through some of your questions and throw some comments out there.
"What is good? (You later clarified success in business)."
-I meant more that when I think of success or good fortune in this world I think of those with money and I started to think about how money makes life miserable for some so I'm rethinking that.
"What is bad? Is a "bad" person a nonChristian? Is a "bad" person someone who is actively unethical? By the same token, is a good person a Christian or an ethical person?"
-Awesome questions. Certainly I don't put good and bad in the easy Christian/non Christian categories. I guess a good person to me is virtuous, selfless, generous, basically Christ-like. I know many non-Christians who are very Christ-like and I consider them good people. I also know some people who profess to be Christian but cheat people in business and are selfish in life and friendships and these people I consider at least unvirtuous if not "bad."
"Is the success of a bad person earned at the expense of others? Is the lack of success of a good person held back because of morals? Is the lack of success of a good person reduced because good people also spend their time doing charitable works, making friends, improving the world?"
-In the context of good things and success being about money then these are all possiblities and great points.
"...do equal amounts of bad and good happen to both types of people but bad people say "S**t happens" and shrug it off while good people say "this is my lot in life or punishment from God for sin or God's will so I'll accept it". Does God allow more bad things to happen to good people because it's a chance for him to show his grace?"
-Very interesting distinctions. I'm still thinking this through but I suppose if I stay with the chance arguement I would say that these reactions don't change my belief on why things happen to people but their perspective will affect their reaction. Like the non-spiritual person who gets cancer and believes in the 's&@t happens' idea, they might fight and stay positive and not blame themselves and have a greater chance of recovery due to a positive attitude. The whole Lance Armstrong 'Livestrong' idea. Whereas I've known Christians who get cancer and dwell on it being God's will and either get wrapped up in the "what did I do to deserve this" or they believe they aren't allowed to be mad about it so they don't fight and they struggle to stay positive.
At the end of the day cancer is going to win in both cases sometimes because it is an awful disease. I guess my point is that I don't see the suffering as being caused by the goodness or badness of the sufferer but rather by the fact that suffering is and inevitible part of life on earth and by chance it happens to some and not others. Our reaction to and handling of suffering can be affected greatly by our idea of who/what did or didn't cause it.
as a follow up I'm not sure what my last comment does to the Old Testament. Unit alluded to this earlier in his struggles with an OT class he took as clearly God did cause good and bad in those times and God is unchanging is He/She not? I know Christ changed the rules of who can have direct access to God but did He change the way God deals with the world? I guess I have to believe He did to think the way I'm saying I do.
Your last point has been one of my big internal debates lately: how much has changed between OT and NT?
Contrary to the popular claim, I think God is a changing God. The natural question that follows, though, is whether or not God can predict or control the future. And I don't really want to get into that question. At this point in my life I'm fine with my stance that God is a changing God but he still knows and can control the future.
All I can point to are two things:
First, verses like Exodus 4:24-25 make it really clear (to me) that God really was going to kill Moses before Moses' wife's intervention. Exodus 32:14 and other similar verses are a little tougher because they say that God relented from his wrath which could be an anthropomorphistic way of saying that God didn't have to destroy his people because they turned back to holiness.
The second reason I have to believe that God is a changing God is because I have to believe that prayer changes things. I'm sure you've heard this argument before and whether or not it's a quality argument, it's one that I cling to. I see Abraham's discussion with God about Sodom & Gomorrah as having this kind of effect.
The idea that God causes bad things to happen is very tough for me. I definitely waver on this issue because I like to believe in the sovereignty of God but I find myself believing in various levels of sovereignty at various times.
Also, your last sentence surprised me: "God is unchanging is He/She not?" Did I miss something somewhere? Or is this a topic for another discussion when it's your month to post the topic?
"God is unchanging..."
I was referring to the unchanging character of God. I don't have a verse off the top of my head but isn't that a biblical principle?
I do agree with you that God changes his mind and in fact this idea gives prayer much more power for me compared to believing that God knows and wills every tiny aspect of this world.
Oh, sorry to go off on an unrelated tangent.
Trembling, I'd enjoy hearing you expand on this comment that you made: "I like to believe in the sovereignty of God but I find myself believing in various levels of sovereignty at various times."
If sovereignty is God's ABILITY to affect anything does it matter that He doesn't always choose to intercede? Or do you see sovereignty as God's actual intercessions? Or is sovereignty simply (as Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary says)"...His absolute right to do all things according to his own good pleasure." If it's merely His right then He doesn't need to DO anything to BE sovereign, does He?
Mr. Trembling brings up a great question regarding what is to be done with and how do we interpret the OT now that we have the NT.
The Old Testament foundations class I took had some cool things to say about this:
Traditionally there have been four main perspectives for understading the OT
1) the OT is read as mere history: "No particular guidance is offered the Christian for one's personal or social life. There is no particular prophetic warrant for Jesus' advent. There is no special place for the Jews in History,"
2) the OT is read through the NT or through the gospel/the ethic of Jesus
3) the OT can be understood as complete in some way in its own theological integrity: "It may be of immense value for guidance in current social practice, limited only by whatever considerations of time or dispensation one may conceive...Both Testamenst are considered to be the locus of normative religous truth,"
4) OT may be viewed as an allegorical symbol in relation to the NT: "the text may offer little more than the myths or fables of other cultures"
-All that was ripped off of Rodney Peterson and Ric Love.
Sorry about the pedantry there, but I thought some of that might be a little interesting to some of you.
Most evangelicals will no doubt find themselves somewhere between 2 and 3. I guess we sort of view the NT/ethic of Jesus as kind of a trump card to be played when we get too uncomfortable with what we experience in the OT. There's definitely some weird things in there, not excluding that Exodus 4 section Trembling referenced.
The question of whether God actually CAUSES bad things to happen to people is a difficult subject for us all I'm sure. As a believer in a merciful God I have to believe that whatever "bad" things he causes to happen are always redemptive/instructive in nature. Life is pregnant with meaning and it is our moral duty as Christ followers to seek it out, even in suffering and judgment.
I refuse to believe God inflicts suffering for any other reason, and I also believe it is more painful for Him/Her to cause it that it is for us to endure it.
The po-mo communities and friends most are surrounded with, when investing in God's character, tend to put all their stock in grace and leave justice in some out of the way place where they won't have to deal with it very often.
When I think of God as an unchanging God it is always in reference to essence/character. I do believe God has, can, and still does "change his mind" in response to circumstances, prayer, etc...or else verses like 1 Peter 5:7 about casting all your cares on God have little meaning.
But the entirety of the virtues of grace, mercy, love, justice, etc... are never lacking.
And so, because I believe that God actively punished people in the OT according to his/her infallibe sense of justice (e.g. Lev. 26:18-19, Deut: 28:20-22) that leads me to believe that God still actively punishes people today because he/she is still perfectly just.
That being said, I don't believe this poses any problem for believing in the sovereignty of God, in fact If God didn't cause bad things to happen it would be more of a problem for me to believe in the sovereignty argument.
Unit, thanks for expanding on the OT questions we've batted around. I appreciate your perspective.
I don't know if I agree with you or not, I'm sure that I'm not the most knowledgable on this subject so I hope you and all others on here will put me in my place if I'm wrong. My question is this though; did Jesus alter the way God deals with humanity? If so, how?
I believe that Jesus gives us a direct link to the broken relationship with God, that he paid the price for all sin, not that all sin is covered (as it is voluntary) but his sacrifice was enough for all sin. So I can fathom an individual receiving justice for their lack of faith in God. I can also understand the idea of God in the OT administering justice directly to groups of people who messed with Him or His chosen people. What I can't understand is God still picking and choosing groups of people and places on this earth to punish since all people are God's chosen people now that Christ has done his work.
Plus it just doesn't add up for me. If God still does these things He did in the OT then why are the places like North Korea and Zimbawe still standing when there is so much poverty and suffering and corruption that are a direct result of the people in charge? Why isn't Amsterdam destroyed? People say what happened in New Orleans was God's wrath but New Orleans is Disney World compared to Amsterdam.
Anyway, I won't go on but what are your thoughts on this line of thinking? Am I out to lunch?
low blows from tuna aside, here i am swooping in for another jibe and then i may disappear for a few days. its hard to catch up when you are gone. so i'll just try to keep going with what's being said and hopefully someday can publish a book of retractions and forgotten epiphanies ...
first of all. what is good and bad? success? i'd say success is succeeding in your goal. but Success in God's eyes is another story and i don't think we are right very often when we label people in our world as Successful or not. (and this is all time-bound too, i may be successful today but not tommorrow)
although i've be necessity had to be reading pretty fast, this has been the best thing that has been said so far: "I do believe we should always be moving and listening and doing."
in a way it answers the question but in a way it begs it. we can't just find a path and sit static on it because such a path (speaking of the individual person's life-style and career etc, not of the Great Cs) may not exist.
on the other hand, the question remains, where do we move, what do we do. As I've said, alot of that is answered for us big picture in the Bible already and people skip this to their peril (maybe it won't rain on them in this world but that's not necessarily the measure of Success)
I think we've gone somewhere new in this conversation. We aren't talking about how we discern God's guidance. We are talking about how God works and moves. So I'll say this:
God is moving. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever it says in Hebrews 13 and I think it goes for God too. But God is unchanging in his flexibility. He moves. He is ALIVE. So the only way to follow Him is to find out what He has already told us to do, and then within those parameters to do our darndest to find out how his HS is guiding us. The way He's wired us is going to be huge in that too. Hence the Calling thing.
I think your calling is your sense of purpose that drives you within the parameters of God's will. So trembling (thanks for being the only one thus far to share personal examples) was following his calling even at the job that wasn't writing, and the one that didn't work out, but good things take work and the calling drove him forward.
Is it a pastoral calling? no. but its a calling. it may evolve or change but its a calling. i know that because i know him, not because I can carte blanche say everyone is currently in their calling.
I would say, though, that there is something unique about a pastoral or missions calling. perhaps an anointing? not that it makes them better people, but they have a higher degree of responsibility and better be dang sure they're supposed to be doing it.
Two more things and I really have to go. Good dialogue everyone.
1) God cares. Even about the red pants and the Canucks winning. (You want to tell Tony Tanti, the real one, that God didn't care about his calling?) But God isn't necessarily going to alter NHL history for the prayers of a theologically misled little boy. He may at some point for a good reason, but that's got to be rare because I don't see God as someone who wants to ruin a good competition.
2) The OT God hasn't changed, but he usurped his own covenant with a new and better one in JC. So he is still the same God, but is not "under" the mosaic covenant anymore. So the mosaic covenant told us a lot about God, but he isn't confined to it.
3) (bonus point) "Good" is moving, just as God is moving. See 1 Cor 10.
Miss you all, keep talking, keep in our holy God's grace ...
Fear, good to hear from you. You said a lot and as Tuna pointed out before you have the ability to come in and provide great summation wisdom because of your long absences. Well done.
I won't comment on everything but I've been giving a lot of thought to the good/bad person, good/bad life concept. As far as defining who is good and bad in their character I think we could all come close to agreeing on some sort of idea there. Christ likeness and the fruits of the Spirit would be an obvious starting point I think. I sum that up as virtuous or good. The good and bad life is harder. Is success in career/relationships a good life? How do we define success? Some people who run simple fishing boats to feed their family and sell some for a little extra money might be the happiest people and could be considered very successful. I guess upon further thought I wonder if what I'm thinking of is people who've had less hard times, life's been easier. So the good things happening to someone may simply be that they have always found work, never been wanting for much, relationships come easy, no major catastrophe's in life etc... I guess this idea of a good life is more about and absence of bad and I suppose in that light it remains quite hard for me to understand why good happens to bad people if God really does still act, and administer justice, the way He did in the OT.
Has the new covenant changed how God deals with humanity? Is the earth now just spinning and bad and good happen at random with occasional interventions from God on the helping side but not on the justice side?
Also noone has really addressed my question earlier about the leading of the Spirit. How do we test that when two Christian's Spirit leading contradict? If we test that by scripture that remains problematic for me because many people get there scriptural interpretation from what they feeling is the leading of the HS.
I will take the Fear challenge and share a personal example.
I had a long email dialogue/debate with a Christian activist. He was organizing an anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage parade and the city wasn't giving him the permit and he was whining about it to the media. We went back and forth many times and my point was always that I see scripture calling us to love the world and tell them about Christ and let the HS convict of sin. I argued that his rallies did no communicate love but only judgement and judgement was not his right or calling as a Christian. We both quoted many passages of scripture to each other and I realized after a while that we are taking opposite views from the same Bible because we came at it from such different angles. He felt very strongly that the Spirit was leading him to do these things and the Spirit was convicting through him.
I don't mind being a bit arrogant here and saying I think I was right and he was wrong and I believe that his interpretation was wrong. This leads me to question how the heck we ever know when the Spirit is really leading. What's the tie-breaker?
This is currently my biggest struggle in my faith.
Wow this has been a pretty amazing discussion so far, I'm not sure if I can add anything of any merit to what has already been stated but I will try. TT that is a great question and I will take a stab at answering it, (but don't hold out to much hope). One passage comes to mind about testing the Spirit's will when the disciples had to choose who should replace Judas as a disciple. They set out guidelines on who this person should be and ended up with two evenly qualified candidates, so they drew lots to decide who it would be. This seems crazy to a democracy like ours but I think God could work in this way as much or more then through voting. I know this isn't totally connected to your question TT. I think with those kind of disbutes you need the greater church body to decide. From what you wrote I implied that this person isn't from your local church so it wouldn't be an easy thing to do. But it seems to me that this is what the church is about, coming together to decide what's God's will. All of this is a little pie in the sky, since the church is so diverse now but it would be great to have something like the Jerusalem council nowdays to decide these tough issues. I'm not sure if any of this is helpful or just causes you more anger.
In regards to Trembling calling me out about my belief in luck, I will try to summarize it like this. If you have a deck of cards and someone takes the top card off and it is a seven of diamonds my belief is it might have been something compeletly different if I were to take the top card off the deck. I love believing this because there is no way to disprove my argument. You may think it is stupid or illogical but you can't prove it to be wrong. In regards to discussing the role of luck and chance in life, I am learly of putting in those terms. I don't think that everything that happens is because of God or the Devil. There is other forces like sin. Since the Garden Sin has played a role in everything around us. People get cancer because of sin, I can say confidently that there will be no cancer in heaven. Yes God has the power to intervene in those circumstances, but it isn't willed by God. Why do some people have to deal with so many awful things, I can't say maybe there is an element of chance. Though I don't want to lose the belief in a personal and interactive God. Sometimes in reading through these posts I get the feeling that God isn't that concerned or involved in our lives. I may be misinterepting what you are saying but that isn't the type of God I belief in.
I will leave you with one story that happened to me this summer. I was planning on taking a vacation to go home and didn't really put to much thought into what days I should go. I settled for a time early in August. While I was a home a good friend of mine who I have lost touch with had a tradegy in his life, his mother died. I was able to go to the funeral and afterwards when I went to see my friend for the first time in a while, his eyes filled up with tears and he hugged me. I knew that this meant a lot to him that I was there for this sad occasion. I'm not sure if God delayed taking her till I was there, but I was struck by how amazing God is. I am only home once a year and God was able to work through my time line to use me. This seems like a very personal and interactive God to me.
Hey Tuna, good to hear from you. I'm sorry to have misled you (again). I do think God cares about us and is involved in our lives. However, I also think that people spend too much time seeking out God's will on little issues ("red pants issues") rather than more important stuff. And more often then not, they simply end up taking the path of least resistance on the more important stuff. I think God gives us some leeway to make up our own minds on the smaller stuff and then he works in that, just as you pointed out with your experience of going home. I've also mentioned that I don't think this makes God LESS sovereign, I actually think it enhances his sovereignty in that he lets us make our own seemingly mundance choices and is still able to use them for his glory. I also think God has already given us some guidance in the bigger stuff (i.e., through our skills and interests and possibly through success indicators, although not necessarily) and this blog is making me think a lot about the other times when God breaks into the created order in a specific Road-to-Damascus kind of way and makes his will painfully apparent to an individual.
And DRC/TT, I haven't risen to your challenge about how to test the spirit because all of my ideas on this matter are crap. I've been hoping for insight from others on this blog since I can't formulate anything on my own that I'm happy with.
I'm a big fan of looking to the community for help. Although a council of Jerusalem might help, this is probably a role that modern church elders should take on. However, it's possible that our elders are too busy managing the church and don't have time to consider pastoral issues.
LAST CALL
Our next topic will be appearing on September 1st. So this is the last call for thoughts and ideas on this topic. (I invite you to summarize your position, draw conclusions, and outline any shifts you've had in your thinking since this topic began).
I've really enjoyed this topic a lot. Thanks for everyone's input.
One interesting observation I made is that we started with one idea of "God's will for your life" and ended up breaking it out into three areas:
God's will
God's call
God's anointing
There seems to be some differences in how we define God's will and God's call and Fear added God's anointing late in the game as a type of specific blessing by God for the purposes of ministry.
As to my thoughts on God's sovereignty, I'm going to briefly summarize them here, although this might make a good topic someday.
As I mentioned, I definitely waver in my thoughts on God's sovereignty. Most of the time I believe that God has the ability to act in any way he wants at any point in time anywhere in his creation (or out of it, too, I guess). There are times when I wonder whether or not God can see or control the future. I generally think God is fully sovereign but I have to admit that I've considered the other possibility.
It's that sovereignty where I waver most: I believe he CAN act but I definitely go back and forth in how much he acts. At times I want him to pull all the strings and at other times I wonder if he's even watching us at all. (Those are extremes but they encompass my thoughts on the matter). I think God purposely limits himself (after all, isn't that the only way that Hell can exist?). When bad things happen I hear people who believe in the full ACTING sovereignty of God saying that God gave permission for it to happen, even if he didn't make it happen himself (as in the book of Job). I'm dialed back from that point a bit: I don't think that God causes most bad things (unless there's a corrective or redemptive purpose) and I still have a hard time thinking that God even gives permission for bad things to happen. Rather than an acting sovereignty, I prefer tend to believe in an ALLOWING sovereignty: that he allows bad things to happen (not through permission but simply through the course of life) so he can show his grace. That said, I still waver. Hope that made sense.
these last few posts have been awesome. looking forward to last words. TT, tuna and then trembling at 3:23 on the 26th really summed up for me how i view all this. So I'll take up my own challenge, then tanti's, and sum up myself:
1) a personal anecdote:
I believe I am called to serve God in ministry. I vowed as a child not to be a pastor but I can't escape this overwhelming sense and desire to do it, which really began for me one day kneeling and weeping and breaking down at the foot of a cross after a crappy sermon which the HS used mightily anyway. (trembling may not remember but he prayed with me that day). i have many times referred to this "calling" (which was given to me many times after that too) as more of a curse than a blessing, but all in all I thank God for it.
Now, I am not saying my calling can't change. I can't rest on my laurels, whatever those are, and coast from here on out. I must keep moving, seeking, doing. THe calling needs definition, and can take me several different places in my life. Some may not even be all that successful! But it charts my course, even if there is a lot of room within that course for a range of decisions, some of which God in His Sovereignty may actually leave up to me. Point is, I design my life to be worthy of it and am humbly aware that I am immensely capable of messing it up should I drift too far from the Word and the Spirit.
More I will say about it is this: (was that Yoda?) It is a personal thing, this calling, in that I know it in my heart. But it is a communal calling too. I have had it affirmed countless times by close friends, family, and even strangers, without asking for it. I have also had it affirmed when I've sought that affirmation. (I need this often.)
Is it the same for everyone? I imagine it is a similar experience but how can I claim its definitive? Did I miss my calling early on only to break and realize it later in life? Maybe. Did it come that day in chapel for the first time? I don't know. But its there, and it is special to me, and I can't shake it, though I've "tried". (I haven't really tried all that hard because I am afraid, yes, afraid, of God. ANd I love him.)
Again, ministry callings have a uniqueness to them but I would'n't say I'm superior, and that's why I was "called" in this way. if anything I am a worse person than the garbageman, or whoever ...
2) Tanti asked for how we discern the SPirit. Good example. This is why we need a return to Catholicism. A pope to veto bad parades. (I'm partly serious here)
Here's my thing. I'll bet that parade guy is partly right; about the issue, and about God wanting him to do something. But he may be hearing wrong or assuming wrong or handling it wrong at some point. I don't know. But I bet he's partly right. Everyone is, except maybe Ben Mulroney.
(By the way, this is another topic but it seems ridiculous that they could stifle such a thing in a supposedly democratic society that prizes pluralism and hearing each otehr out.)
Now, the guy, if I'm imagining him right, is probably off and sounding hateful ... and there's teh trouble. Where is his community to refine his approach? He probably goes to a fundamentalist church and so his community endorses him, or has no voice in his life. I agree that a Jerusalem Council would be great and yet, it is pie in the sky. Tanti may have been this guy's only dissenting voice besides the Spirit, who he is probably only partly listening to.
I bet if you could get this guy to really sit through a hermeneutical discussion and really slug it out in love you could maybe get somewhere, but I don't know, its probably impossible since people don't listen to anyone once they are convinced the HS has told them to do something.
And there's the thing. IF the HS is telling you something, what you should do is be humble and seek affirmation. (If the HS really told you couldn't he tell others to tell you too?)
And if you face any obstacles then you seek an even broader base (including non "yes-men") for your affirmation.
This leads me to those 5 C's for discerning God's will, which I mentioned earlier, which I have now remembered what they are:
Commanding Scripture
Compelling Spirit
Communion of Saints
Common Sense
Circumstantial Signs
Obviously it is easy to pick out some trump cards here, and when the Bible is clear enough I'd say its the closest thing to it. But the point Alpha makes (yes, Alpha) is that these work in TANDEM with each other. THe top three especially carry significatn weight but that is not to downplay the bottom two. There are ones like signs which one wouldn't rely on without at least two of the other four, and so on ... but I think this is a good directive,
quite snappy, and aside from the fact that I hate these sort of easy 5 point sum-ups, it sums it up pretty good for me and is generally how its worked for me.
In closing:
I believe God cares and is personally involved, and does direct us, even in little matters, but does value our freedom (he risked A LOT to give it to us after all) and actually wants to teach us to exercise it wisely, and therefore I think he lets us hash it out and even make our own decisions a lot of times. But he does want us consulting him, even if there is rarely an easy answer.
This develops a relationship between us and Him (Word and Spirit) and us and the Community (hopefully) and even us and oureselves. And if not for this I shudder to think what kind of relationship with God I would have.
So seek him. Seek him on the red pants even. But for God's sake let's get the Biblical mandates right and work within THOSE. ANd let's remember that the path may be wide enough to handle either the red pants or the blue.
I close with one more personal story. Three years ago I was considering one of two ministry possiblities. Senior Pastor in Manitoba or a youth pastorate in an unnamed BC locale. I had to decide which to pursue. One was nearing candidation stage and the otehr was merely in "flirtation" stage but that didn't change the fact that I had to make a decsion and it wasn't easy.
I prayed hard. I consulted. My wife and I prayed. I even fasted for goodness sake (not long though, so don't get the wrong idea about my level of piety, it is embarassingly low).
I had no breakthrough. Either seemed good for very different, almost opposit reasons. Both were seemingly within my calling. I knew whatever I decided there was no looking back. No regrets. It was a heavy time, deciding.
One day, I was at wits end. Where was the clear direction I had had before? Why wasn't it this time like it had been other times, where God had made the choice fairly plain? Could it be God defies categorical repitition?
SO this one day I went rollerblading, and I'm going through all the pros and cons, and I start praying for a sign. If I had a fleece or knew what one was I'd have used it.
And I came to a fork in the path.
Get ready to laugh, that's okay, but I did it. I stopped. I sat down. I said to God, "I'm not going any further until you tell me which way to go. I'll sit here all night if I have to." The east is east and the west is west.
So I sat.
Nothing.
I sat some more. I prayed.
Nothing.
Then ... something. THe Spirit?
I just felt this new idea, I hadn't thought of it before, but it was like: "It's your call."
I went east.
Sorry teens, I love ya, but I'm not a youth guy.
Is this how it always is? No I doubt it. But GOd is alive and He is a person, and it was that way that time and I'm sure it could be others. But you still have to seek HIs will to find out. And in the process you find Him.
We had to work through that one because days would come when we'd wonder what we'd gotten ourselves into. God wanted us to choose, and not just have it chosen for us. HE wanted us to seek, and rely, and then go forward together.
Amen. What a life we lead. God is Sovereign. But He ain't no Marionette.
great story tuna. i think "little coincidences" like this, while too sketchy to base a lot on, end up being very important to our relationship with God. i don't necessarily think God delayed this fine woman's death so you could be at her funeral (and I know you aren't saying that either) but I do think it possible to recognize God at work in all of that ... perhaps not as puppeteer but as a good friend and an efficient redeemer who just loves to "work things out for good to them that love Jesus" (have I got that verse right?)
How did I get the Babywater Cliche Award when Fear used "at the foot of the cross" AND "resting on my laurels" in the same post at 2:11 PM on August 28th???
I'm thinking about a new award: the Alliteration Award for your 5 "c's" of discering the Spirit. haha
boondoggle
In response to the Tantian Dilemma:
Good questions about the OT. The one about whether Jesus alters the way God deals with humanity is a tough one, I'm not even sure where to start with that. All I know is that God's character wasn't changed with the Advent, so justice remains perfect. I always find it helpful to remember that our scripture isn't comprehensive. There were probably alot of other cities and hamlets getting away with all sorts of crazy crap at the same time that Soddom and Gomorrah were getting razed. Just like how you questioned why an Amsterdam could be left standing while its little brother in crime, N'ahrlans, gets raked over the coals.
To some extent evil prospers in this lifetime, just like it did in the OT. Some people seem to get away with it, while others get nailed. At the risk of stealing the "middle road diffuser" trophy, I would say that we have to take some comfort that the scales will balance out eventually.
Let me make sure I'm clear though when I say I don't think suffering is always punishment, or even usually. All that's important is to recognize the possibility.
I agree with TT that our role is not to judge or convict non-believers, and so I don't think we can ever justify stating that such and such a tragedy was direct punishment for sin. Those kinds of people end up being terribly unpopular; I don't know how this leaves any room for modern day prophets though.
To summarize a bit:
1) I think I might be walking a bit of a lonely road when I say I think that God still does cause suffering, albeit with a redemptive end in mind, as punishment for sin. I don't think there is some linear relationship, i.e. every sin has a corresponding punishment that gets meated out as soon as you sin. I.e. a plague of boils for trading Gretz to LA, or a urinary tract infection for over salting the lobster bisque.
And in many cases our punishment may just be having to deal with the circumstances our failures have created, and to learn from them.
2) I really like what Dr. Fear said in response to the testing the HS discussion about seeking a broader base of affirmation when there are dissenting views to your interpretation.
That is such an important part of the problem, which would solve a lot of issues if we would have the humility to realize our interpretation of the HS's guidance isn't flawless or an exact science. If people disagree with the way you are reading into things then that is probably a good indication that you need to spend some more time in prayer, community, scripture etc... Perhaps I might be allowed to take a page of the book of GKC yet again; "It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong"
3)The Calling discussion is a tough one for me because I don't think I have ever received one. I don't believe I was called to be an engineer or have a special interest in the integrity of the Libyan potable water supply, etc...
However I do believe I am in God's will where I am right now, as an engineer. I expect my career path will change dramatically over the years and I don't know whether I will necessarily feel called to any of those milestones. That being said, timing is probably something that varies alot in people's calling.
I enjoyed this discussion and look forward to Mr. Trembling coming offering.
slacks
Fear, I like the 5 C's. I think I make the mistake of leaning too heavily on my common sense. It's arrogance I guess.
I've enjoyed this topic and been challenged. I also have had very real moments in my life where I felt clear direction from God and my current struggle is with other people not having the same experience though they are seeking it.
I would say still though that we must make choices sometimes without the fork in the road experience. I do not diminish that for you Fear, and I've had similar moments with God but rarely. Maybe I seek it rarely, maybe I feel like He doesn't care or want to care about my red pants so I don't bother Him with it and maybe he wants me to. I don't know.
I've had the unique privelage in life of feeling like I never left my "call" to youth ministry as I've been able to volunteer which gives me all the good with none of the bad. The bad being the parts of the Body of Christ that make me struggle. Christ told us we'd be better off when He left cause He was leaving his Spirit but I don't see it. I appreciate a couple of you weighing in on my discernment question and I agree with you to a point. The problem still for me is that there are whole communities which contradict each other and so people can and do go to the place where there version of the Spirit leading is more easily validated. I know I do this.
I don't know if I've summed up or asked more questions here but this one's gonna take more than a month of blogging for me to be at peace. I thank you all for your wisdom.
I'm not sure why I got the monolith of obscurity for referring to God as he/she. God has no gender and Unit uses the he/she thing in everyone of his posts.
Good point tanti. I only noticed yours cuz you got called on it but its true that the unit has employed such grammar himself. You can share the award. i defend the giving of this award, however, because, yes, God may have no gender, but you have to admit this is a provocative way to refer to Him/Her in an argument which has nothing to do with that. by definition, and obscure reference. (by the way, the awards are meant to be good natured jokes, not indictments. just to be clear)
(and since it probably won't be an official topic any time soon, i'll digress a little to address the issue raised. wouldn't it make more sense by that logic to refer to God as an It? Except God is a Person. In the end, I appreciate the point, but hope that it is not confused as Patriarchal oppression if I personally continue to use the He and trust that we all understand it to be metaphor not limiting the legitimacy of females as equal sharers in "made in the image of God" status. (frankly, I find females more becoming God's image than males, but that's another story)
Mr Trembles: Yes I did utilize some cliches didn't I? But how can you beat yours? You KNOW you locked the award up when you used that one.
Fear, I take the award as good natured and enjoyed your defense of it immensely.
Here's a topic that is too silly to ever be a serious topic on here but since we are made in God's image and God has no gender and as Fear pointed out females have as much if not more of the image of God in them then could it be concluded that one gender is not the complete image of God? If so then what was Adam before Eve? Or is Genesis symbolic and male and female were made at the same time?
That was a tangent.
good one. but an image by definition i don't think needs to be complete to be what it is. both are in the image of God. neither are the complete depiction. question might be better stated: are we more in GOd's image when married than when not? my answer would be: not MORE, but uniquely displaying God's relational image, yes.
sounds like we're almost ready for that next topic, although i still want to hear sound-offs from a few of the others.
Oh, THAT cliche.
I thought I was being called out for the coin cliche which I thought I had twisted enough to make it a non-cliche.
Yes, I suppose I do deserve the cliche award for "[unfortunate circumstances] happens".
And I applaud your choice for the Topol Award for Yiddish Proverbs. In fact, if you click the link, I think you're looking at Tuna's doppelganger. Go Topol!!!
There's a lot of pressure on me right now for the next topic.
And I think that humanity (both men and women) reflect the image of God in a number of ways: individually (in the way we can think, act, emote), as a couple (in relationships, the concept of the whole being more than the sum of the parts), in relationships (friendly, positive, healthy, able to build each other up), and as a group (it its power, its diversity, etc.)... all in different ways. God's glory can't be confined to a single representation. And if we believe in the sovereignty of God as being able to see into the future, then we know that God created Adam to look for a partner but feel unfulfilled until God created woman. And when God created woman, the couple were made in the image of God. It was mentioned that being unmarried makes this seem like couples are more of the image of God than singlehood but that's not really the point: just because a man and a woman as a couple is the image of God doesn't diminish your own representation of the image of God.
Oh, I'm procrastinating. Gotta go.
perpendicular
Good points Trembling, and I agree that the image of God is found in all those examples you listed.
I was asking a much sillier question which is based on the idea that Genesis 2:20 seems to imply that Eve was an afterthought. In that line of thinking I was asking if Adam had a gender before Eve if he was originally created to be the lone human.
what you are asking, then, is not so much if he had a gender (which is nonsensical since he was called man right from the get go), but: did he have ... oh, i can't even say it.
All I can say is that if Trembling makes that our next topic we're in trouble.
I wonder if the unit and tuna (did you notice that those names are almost palindromes?) will give us any last words?
I've been thinking about it a bit more and I have something else. I don't know why it only occurred to me now, except maybe the tangent we got on didn't bring it to mind. But thinking about God and how much he's decided, and how specifically He guides us, and how much "room to manoever" we have, and all that, and my finely alliterated CSs which I swiped from Alpha ........
..... when it all comes down to it I think on a one to one basis one thing we can say everyone needs to do is Surrender. You know, "Father, not my will but Thine be done." IF I would really sit down and REALLY pray that everyday, wow, that should almost be the goal of my life.
One might argue, yeah, but Jesus only prayed that in a big decision moment, it wasn't to be a prerogative for every day Christianity. I beg to differ. Jesus often went off alone to pray and often told the Disciples he only did what the Father told Him. Where do you think He got the fortitude, the power, the gentle confidence, etc .....?
And furthermore. He may not have commanded us to pray that prayer, but how about this one: "Our Father in heaven ... Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done."
I know I'm leaving the larger questions of how we discern that will unanswered in this particular comment, but here's the point I'm making:
Surrender is key. Daily stuff like whether to "man-up" and have a good attitude at work, or be patient and there for my kids, or do the communication necessary to make the marriage think flow, or to be nice to the person at Safeway, or to wear the stinking red pants to church when we all know it would be an incredible distraction from worship ....... these are not only surrender moments but the presence of mind to do the best thing is at least helped if not totally enabled by a lifestyle of surrender to God's will.
But beyond the daily stuff. WHat about the big decisions of our lives? Call it a calling, call it the way things have been working out, whatever, I don't care. Point is, is your life that you are living surrendered to God? If it is, it has His blessing and you'll sense His peace (overall) and I daresay you'll have His empowerment for whatever it is.
So whether it is the Unit with his engineering or Trembles with his writing, does it need to be labelled a call when the real issue is, is it surrendered?
I'm not sure GOd has ever guided me the same way twice. (Talking about the big decisions here). Maybe early on he did so I'd get the hang of it. BUt as time goes on it gets more complex, more hairy, more difficult, more unpredictable. But hte constant in all my decisions, at least the ones I had peace about, has been a point of surrender.
Several of those came at great emotional cost (ie crisis moments like the foot of the cross moment i was mentioning) and some have come very naturally, but all of the decisions I've made where I left with confidence in God's guidance (or should I say blessing) where ones where I surrendered my will to His.
Even ones that have made absolute sense in every way. Or ones I really wanted and quite frankly didn't really want to know if God wanted me to do or not. I had to surrender it to have peace.
Has God ever withheld that peace? That guidance I guess you'd call it? I think so. Those are other stories. Painful ones. But I am thankful for his re-directions, as much as for his directions. And in the end, if we aren't developing some sort of habit of surrender in our lives what sort of habit are we setting?
This may sound sort of airy-fairy and vague but I hope you get what I'm driving at. I wish I'd mentioned this earlier when the topic was ripe. I'm not trying to squeeze in a last word that trumps them all here, honestly, I just really think this is the answer I was at least looking for in regards to my original questions.
I had to surrender this summer, repeatedly, my plans. And because of those moments (a few of them in which I felt almost like God had me at gunpoint) I can go forward (through difficulties as well as successess) with more confidence in God's direction, his calling even, than if I hadn't given it up to Him first.
I hope this makes sense. Anyone relate?
1 Cor 10:31 is a bit out of context here maybe (although it is after a passage that puts a lot of value in each individual's conscience), but it says: "Whatever you do, do it all to the glory of God."
That's what I'm talking about. Basically saying, "Whatever you want God, I'll do it." Stop me if I'm off on my own here. Show me if I'm not getting it. I want nothing but Your will and when I'm in it it's all for you."
Sorry for the long closing post. I'm eager for the next topic Tremling, and am happy to check back here too if anyone has anything more to say here too.
What IS God's gun? Is it a Colt .45, "the most powerful handgun in the world... blow your head clean off"? Perhaps it's like the gun in The Mexican? Is it a six shooter or (somehow more appropriate) a seven shooter? Are his initals carved in the guns?
Hmmmm... maybe THIS will be my topic for September.
I like to think God would have a little more refined tastes than your typical in your face american preferences. I.e I like to think he would use a Sig Sauer instead of the Colt 45, drive the infiniti instead of the corvette, drink the guiness instead of the MGD, listen to Broken Social Scene instead of The Spice Girls, etc... Although maybe I'm just trying to deify my own preferences, wouldn't be the first time.
Nice trump card Mr. Fear, you win. But nice comment nonetheless. I think you hit on something pretty fundamental, strange how it hasn't really come up yet. Jesus always had an attitude of surrender to God's will, and as far as I'm concerned, that is a pretty good example to imitate.
Tuna--Anut
Unit--Tinu
Close indeed
Worcesteshire
Great finish.
Fear I appreciate the point about surrendering though in a way this takes us right back to the beginning since those with the attitude of surrender are still going to surrender to what they believe to be God's will/call/annointing for them. And how they came to that conclusion could be anyone's guess.
And God would never use a gun, straight up hand to hand combat.
Hey guys,
I filled out the "members check in" post and noticed all the action was in here. So after reading through everything, I realized that I've been invited to participate in discussions with some wise, God-fearing men. As humbling as that is, I'm looking forward to Trembling's new topic.
I'm glad Tuna is always getting lucky.
-Joel
Lately all of you have been getting lucky more than me. Now to the discussion on hand.
It will be intriquing to get to heaven and see a playback of your life. To see the director's cut of "Life and times of Tuna". Sometimes I am aware of God's direction but I think we will all be suprised at how God was working in our lives. I do agree that often God allows us to choose what specifically we want to do. Like most of you have already said we are each equipped with different abilites and gifts and how those get played out in our lives is somewhat up to us as individuals. I like what Fear said in regards to God leading him differently each time. I think I need to be more open to God doing things in different ways, to show me his path. Also I am encourgaed to see that Fear didn't say that God always gives you peace when you make the correct decision. LIke Feat I believe God's gift of peace will often work as a stamp of approval on our choices but sometimes we are going to have to keep going even when there is no sense of peace.
Sadly I laugh at our Christian societys problems with understanding God's will. It seems that we cry out for God's leading but don't spend but much time in prayer and listening to God. That goes for me as much as anybody. I wonder if we actually had regular times with GOd if we would be so preplexed about what he wants?
Finally, good topic to start off with. I was filled with emotions spanning from laughter to tears to stomach cramps, to nauseia, amd finally to rage. Rage is my base emotion it courses through my viens. On second thought its either rage or apathy. There is no middle road with the Tuna.
Great summation Tuna and a big welcome to underachiever.
So...it's September 1st Trembling, where's the new topic? If you're searching for God's will for the next topic there are 64 comments above this one that might help.
In reference to Tuna's comment about everybody getting lucky more than him. Sadly that is not the case, not for lack of trying though.
Actually I think you will have peace about correct decisions Tuna, but I think I know what you are driving. THat peace might not feel like warm fuzzies right away, but I believe it will come, otherwise God has more to say that we aren't getting.
But its a feeling and so I'm not saying to base everything on it, but I think it comes.
Welcome underachiever. You are in good company
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