Here's some stuff from Stanley Hauerwas and William Willimon's Resident Aliens and Andrew Purves' Reconstructing Pastoral Theology. The problem is compounded because our church lives in a buyer’s market. The customer is king. . . . Pastors with half a notion of the gospel who get caught up in this web of buying and selling in a self-fulfillment economy one day wake up and hate themselves for it. We will lose some of our (potentially) best pastors to an early grave of cynicism and self-hate. What a pastor needs is a means of keeping at it, a perspective that enables the pastor to understand his or her ministry as nothing less than participation in the story of God. . . .
Atheism slips into the church where God really does not matter, as we go about building bigger and better congregations (church administration), confirming people’s self-esteem (worship), enabling people to adjust to their anxieties brought on by their materialism (pastoral care), and making Christ a worthy subject for poetic reflection (preaching). At every turn the church must ask itself, Does it really make any difference, in our life together, in what we do, that in Jesus Christ God is reconciling the world to himself? (Hauerwas and Willimon)
We live in the time of the entepreneurial pastor who understands ministry according to business practices that are focused on marketing and selling a product. . . . [Isn’t it a sort of] ministerial programmatic triumphalism, in which God’s salvation and blessing are tied to a special kind of pastoral competence and seeming contextual and contemporary relevance? . . .
Shepherding has been developed as an imitative rather than as a participatory approach to ministry. . . . The effect is to cast the pastor back upon his or her own resources.... [leading to Jesus’] replacement by an ethical Christ-principle separated from him. . . . Of course, a pastor must develop interpersonal skills and understand emotions, human development, and the complexities of human relationships and family systems. But none of these supplies the ground, the basic content, that gives pastoral work its specific identity as Christian. (Purves)
What do you think?
16 comments:
Thanks for the new topic Fear. As as result of taking this class I have been thinking through this complex issue. I am very worried about what the class is going to promote. The books so far have been about incorportating good business principles. You are right that this literature stresses the importance of a pastor's abilites: to communicate, cast vision, and market. I don't think those things are necessiarly bad but they are not the priority. It sounds like the literature is promoting the idea that if the pastor does the right things then the church will be big and succesfull. What role does God play? Can a "succesfull" ministry end with a church closing its doors? or with someone ending up dead or in jail? My answer is yes, though I'm not asking for that kind of ministry.
I do believe that leadership is important and it is something that is sorely lacking in our churches but what these leadership books are selling doesn't seem like the antidote to the disease.
So I go to class in a few days not knowing what the answer is but knowing that the solutions proposed are not it and will only lead to a more watered down Christianity.
We need leadership but it has to be Christian!
good luck in that class. i wish i could be there by your side as you were for me in epistles. i know that you live by your comment: it isn't a successful class unless someone gets punched in the face. trouble is I think this time it might be you!
Great topic Fear. Here's my take on the topic: Pastors have a challenging task because their work is not really measurable on this earth. Churches try to measure by counting butts-in-the-pews, counting offering, counting baptisms and weddings and funerals but the bottom line of the pastor's work won't be known until we're all before the throne. As a result, I think pastors know exactly what they need to do (it's in the bible), they sort-of know how to do it (there are lots of ideas out there, both old and new), but pastors don't have a good gauge to know whether or not it's getting done. So we revert to outside sources that can get it done and measure well... the business world. That may not necessarily be bad (after all, I buy into the idea that all truth is God's truth). Problem is, like many things out there, the church does a half-assed job of doing something. The outside world does something well, the church tries the same thing, falls flat, slaps a Jesus fish on it, and we end up with Christian music, Christian movies, Christian fiction, and pastoral guidance... nearly all of which sucks to some degree. Throw in the fact that the church is not a corporation dealing with an income statement based on money-for-goods transactions... instead it's dealing with people who are entrenched in tradition, who mistake emotion for spirituality, and who have much more buy-in to "their" local church than the average consumer feels about a business.
There is some good, though. When Tuna was here he was reading about book about communication and we talked about it a bit and I thought it was incredibly helpful. (Tuna: I'm talking about that whole piece on consensus, consultation, etc. That was really good).
Every era of church will create a new bushel of books ("Moses as CEO", "Jesus as CEO", "Leadership secrets of fill-in-the-blank"). All we can do, I think, is skim through the crap until occasionally we find a good resource that actually helps. And I suspect that resource will not be so much about employing business models to make sure the church operates smoothly, nor will it have anything to do with measurables, but I think the good stuff will all have to do with relating to people: communication, service, empathy.
those are good comments. i guess my problem is that leadership gurus all tell you "this is how to do it" or "this is the biblical way" or worse yet "this is the way to success", when there are many ways to do it, not one biblical way, and, as you say, success is not measurable by the usual standards. (where is martyrdom on rick warren's radar, for example?)
clearly i am not very good at starting discussions here because this topic seems like another dud. i'm on holidays, and am sparse, but wouldn't mind hearing how the class went tuna?
As co-founder of this blog, I apologize for not really actively participating lately and for relying heavily on Fear, who is on vacation.
To do a better job I need to incorporate the Jethro principle with the leadership strategies of Nehemiah. Then I'll definitely have more time to blog!
Sorry for the delay in writing. It was hard to get comptuer access when in class and my home computer is having its own issues.
I was really worried before taking this class because I disliked the readings and was fearful of the approach they promoted. The class was better than I expected, though I do still have some lingering concerns.
This class stressed the importance of churches having vision and that does seem to be lacking. In churches most visions are based on the Great Commission and are applied to a distinct local congregation. I know my home church suffers for a lack of a vision and direction. So much of our time and energy is given to just trying to stay alive and keep things going. The problem is, that doesn't create energy and passion.
I appreciated in this class the emphasis on a team directed vision. Not rellying on one person to give the vision, or one person that the vision is based around. Throughout my preparations for this class I was thinking about Stephen the guy who gets stoned in the book of Acts. What was his vision for his ministy and his life? I don't think it included being a martry but his death was so important for the building of the church. I was struggling on how to include Stephen and people like him in the discussion on vision. I think God lead me to a view that I am satisfied with for now.
Think of a chess game. To win at chess you have to sacrifice some of your players to win. With this analogy I'm not saying that God is calling us all to be martrys but that we should be willing to play our part. Often I get very frustrated because I can't see the big picture. I don't understand what God is doing and how things are connected. I am worried about what the outcome will be if I act. My conern shouldn't be with all of that but it should be focused on doing the one thing that God requires of me. I have a lot of dreams for my life and many have not panned out so far but all that God requires of me is do what He asks of me. Not to worry about the big picture or what negative outcomes will come out of doing what He wants. We are not the one orchasting the events we are the players of the game.
This relates to vision in that it is good to have a vision based on how you think God is leading you. But as much as possible vision whould not be based on an individual. We don't know how God is going to work out his plan. We don't know what kind of sacrifices will have to be made to fulfill God's plan. We just have to be willing to do what God wants us to do.
I don't know if that was at all worthwile. It is pretty hot and even at my best I am still lacking in: clarity, organization of thought, proper sentence structure, personal hygenie, good taste, self-motivation, self-control, patience, and the list really goes on from there.
I think this topic is worthwile discussing so let's give it more time. Some people are away physically and mentally but we can still have a good discussion. I will hopefully be able to keep posting and will try to get my computer fixed.
those are some great points tuna.
of course, the great advantage of holy crap is that we can have this discussion without personal hygene, or even clothing, being an issue.
i like what you say about having a vision but recognizing that our part in that vision's accomplishment, or even our measure of its success, can not always be clear. and it definitely isn't individualistic.
maybe part of my problem isn't with leadership strategy and vision so much as our methods of measurement. of course, this calls into question NCD (natural church development), which I've been a big proponent of in the past and still like for some reasons. also trembling organizes NCD at his church. i don't really want to knock it too bad, i like it, but is it's underlying assumption sound? it basically says (and backs with stats) that healthy churches grow.
i question some of how it defines health, but for the most part find it to be a good diagnostic for church ministries. a wake up call for many. i love that it makes health the priority and leaves growth to God, but then at the end of the day the goal is still growth. what kind of growth? again, it seems numeric, mega church growth is the be all end all. as much as i like NCD, and vision, i question some of this.
Stephen is a great example. And if we scour the Bible I'm sure we see many others.
Could we be so dedicated to our vision that we'd let a congregations fold in order to acomplish that vision? or lose a pastorate? or lose our lives?
this doesn't come up much in church leadership talk.
enlighten us tuna, i like what i'm hearing from this class.
I'm not wearing any pants right now.
Good point trembling, does leadership involve wearing pants?
I had a good discussion with a classmate. He made the point that the church is always playing catch up. The buzz in the church world is trying to co-opt successful business practices, when it comes to leadership. There are some important lessons to be learned but the problem is the secular world is transitioning away from the business model at the same time that the church is trying to learn it.
Young people, especially, are leary of multi-national businesses. They fear what globalization is doing to the planet. So while the church is playing catch up the secular world is crying out for something different.
Christian leaderhip should be leading the way but few people know what that is and what that would look like.
I am also asking myself can a "successful" ministry mean that your church closes down? Can it mean that you get fired as a pastor? I also like some of the stuff that NCD (natural church development) promotes but I do question their definition of "success".
It seems that they and church leadership authors believe that as long as you as a church leader are doing the right things that your church will grow. It seems like you can force God into blessing your ministry because you are so talented and are doing it the right way.
I read this book,(can you believe that, I actually do read once and while) and it called Jonah the most succesful preacher in the Bible because when he went to Nineveh everyone converted. But Jonah had a horrible attidue, he was not well trained, and he didn't do things the right way. He relucantly went and said what God told him to say and people responded.
This story serves as a testimoney to how God can work and not as a model of leadership but the point is God is going to do what He wants, when He wants to. I am leary of leadership approaches that lay all the resonsibilty of success at the feet of the pastor or elders board.
We should strive to do the best job we can but we should never lose sight of the fact that we are completely dependent upon God to bless what we are doing.
By the way, this post was written while being shackled down by pants.
tuna, don't let the pants get you down! and don't ever ever ever let your pants get down!
Great posts there tuna. this will enrage you but i couldn't agree more! basically all i want to do here is keep provoking you to say great things! give us more o great one.
A word about this. I buy into what tuna is saying, but I can't stand it either. I can't stand that my definition of ministry means I can do all the right things and may never have anything to show for it, but some guy like Jonah (or worse yet, the Crystal Cathedral dude) will come along and God will bring "success", or worse yet, work miracles. To be frank, this is one of the main reasons I hesitate to be in ministry. You try so hard to do what is right and good, and for what? Even supposing you do manage to do something right and good, which is doubtful, it may or may not have any observable impact in your lifetime. "Success" may or may not come. It may or may not even be what you think it is. God's gonna do what he does anyway! Why anyone busts their butt to become a pastor God only knows. This sounds selfish and ridiculous I guess, but its how I feel.
Good points Fear, because you are finally lining up on my side of an issue.
A problem I see in current Pastoral Leadership programs is that elevates church leadership at the expense of God. God makes it clear that He will not share His glory with anyone. The way church leadership functions should be done in a way that brings the most glory to God. It is His church, not ours. We are trying to build His kingdom not ours.
The problem is do this, it still requires some participation from us. Praying is important but if all we do is pray than I think we are missing out.
I believe God wants us to do our best using the gifts He has given us. We should try to develop these gifts and work in the culture that we live in. All along though we need to make it clear that it is God who is doing the work and should be recieving the praise.
Proper church leadership might involve writing books and touring the globe but those are dangerous practices. I cringe at many "succesful" church leaders. Some of that may be jealousy but also I am worried that what they do is just adveritse their name and their church's name. It is important to learn from one another, and some of these leaders have important truths to hear but I cringe at the way they do it. Don't promote your name, like it was becuase of you that God acted.
I don't want to support any program, book, or video series that suggest that if you do these simple steps than you will be "succesful". Even if those are good things to do, when you make it formulaic you are heading into troubling waters. God is not formualic and He doesn't act in such a way.
So I think church leadership boils down to: knowing that it is God's church and I am compeltely dependent upon Him to act for anything to occur. At the same time I am going to strive to the best of my ability to do what I think He wants me to do. I need to develop the gifts He has given me and try to discren how to best act in the culture I live in.
Also, it is crucial to remember church leadership is not about being the Lone Ranger. God is working through thousands of churches to accomplish His purposes.
That's all I have for now. Wow, that was probably my longest post on Holy Crap. It did though take about an hour and half to type because I kept getting interupted at work, go figure.
Sorry for my silence this month, though apparently others are on holiday too.
This is a great topic and I am on the fence to be honest.
Part of me hears what Tuna is saying and agrees, passionately in fact. I think things like church advertising and church signs have a negative effect. If people don't hear about your church from other people and want to come then why would you want them there? That sounds harsh as I type it but I believe that God brings people to Him and uses his people to do it at times.
That being said I wonder if God can and wants to use a church sign sometimes? I don't know. I know this though, getting them in the door is meaningless on it's own.
This relates in that I'm using it as one example of a practical step pastors take to use strategy and try to bring success (people) to their ministry and I guess it's the most "business-like" strategy I can think of, but there are plenty more. Of course I don't have a problem with strategies, God speaks through people like Jonah very rarely I would say so to not have a plan or strategy seems foolish. I also have no problem with full buildings but I have a problem with a pastor who only strives for those things. I respect a pastor far more who impacts a handful of people in his/her life than say a Robert Schular who speaks mindless Chicken Soup to millions each week. Maybe Schular disciples some people in private and is a great guy, I guess I can't claim to know, I just cringe at every single technique and strategy he uses to fill his building and I think I could get more spiritually out of a U2 show because frankly they're doing the same thing and Bono is better at it.
I feel like I rambled but I'm pretty sure I had a point in there somewhere.
sweet sweetness, tanti is back. and tuna is as lucid as ever. i am basking in the excellence of others (for once!)!
i agree with you tuna. you are trying to find the tension between excellence (i.e. stewardship) and doing nothing. It is the uncomfortable paradox of Christianity, that it is his work but we do it.
tanti, there is a great although short article in a recent issue of faith today (surprise surprise) raising the issue of church signs and how lame and trite and awful they are. about time someone said that. those things are embarassing 95% of the time. and the 5% of the time they get someone in the door: then what?
i saw that cbc news peice called "seven" the other day, where the guy follows a bunch of southern American evangelicals around for a week. It was so interesting. find it online if you can. the amazing thing was that the dude came away feeling like he could understand why christians were doing what they were doing, but he wasn't worried because most of what they did was just THEM TALKING AMONGST THEMSELVES and it would never reach the culture at large let alone connect with anyone or come off as relatable or anything.
i don't know what that has to do with the topic at hand except to bolster that point that so many of our attempts to use "secular" strategies and gimmics end up looking lame and fake anywyay. unless of course we actually live in the world and it just comes naturally to enjoy the good and redeem the bad. i.e. be salt and light. i'm making it sound easy. but by "naturally" I mean it isn't forced. With the Spirit we walk in the world and it happens.
"When we explore this dynamic meaning of 'the authority of scripture,' we realize in a new way that the 'authority' of accredited church leaders cannot consist solely or primarily of legal structures, important though both church structures and canon law are in their own ways. It must be primarily, as it was with the apostles, a matter of proclaiming the word in the power of the Spirit. The Western chruch has for some generations allowed a dangerous 'separation of powers,' according to which scripture is taught by professional academics while the church is run by clergy who, with noble exceptions, rely on secondhand and increasingly outdated understandings of scripture itself. . . . The church of the first three centuries would hardly have recognized the models of Christian leadership into which we, at least in the modern Western churches, seem to have slipped without anybody much noticing. . . . [we should] pray for scripture to be given its head once more; for teachers and preachers who can open the Bible in the power of the Spirit, to give the church the energy and direction it needs for its mission and renew it in its love for God; and, above all, for God's word to do its work in the world."
-from the last pages of NT Wright's 2005 book, "The Last Word: Beyond the Bible Wars to a New Understanding of the Authority of Scripture.
total tangent, but a short update. love the new format, especially the creed. trying to catch up with all the posts. it will probably take a few days/weeks. basically i get home from work, take over child care, go to sleep, repeat. i don't know how people do this with multiple kids. thank you for the topol award, rewarding me for ignoring the site for a long while. peace and love, under
Good to hear from you underachiever, I hope that there is still time in your day for laughter and sunshine or at least making fun of others.
The summer has resulted in a drastic reductions in posts but the love of "Holy Crap" doesn't fade, it is like a good woman who is there for you no matter what time of night you stagger home.
I'm not sure if I have anything to add in relations to the topic but I wanted to post since it has been awhile.
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