Retractions and Epiphanies

Okay, so four and a half topics later and its almost the end of '06. We'll take on a new topic in '07, but lets gather our thoughts. As Trembling alluded to in the last topic, sometimes you have to let a topic simmer. Having had that opportunity, are there any further things you'd like to say? Just state the topic and go for it. If we hammer away at one or glance on all of 'em this month that's fine. I'll throw in a new slant on the media one for the heck of it too. But let's hear about your retractions and forgotten epiphanies!

Hell: Is there a view you can't hold? Is there a view you should hold?

Women: Should women be ordained? Should they be senior pastors? How do you go about seeking change?

SeekerChurch: Are you with Trembling on this one? Why or why not?

Guidance: How does God guide you? Does He go before you or stand behind you and how do you know what He's saying?

Media & Christmas: Is it wrong to dislike the Christmas season? Do Christians need to do something to counter the commercialization of the event or should we ride the hype for all its worth?

Its been great chatting with you all. Looking forward to '07. Until then, let's have a great December and a meaningful Incarnation Day.

Hell in a Handbasket

Greetings Friends,

First off let me say that the title of this topic alone should be enough to win the Babywater Cliché award.

But seriously now

So, seeing as how it turned out to be my turn to post a topic this month, and as you are all clearly at my mercy now, I thought I would raise a topic for discussion which I have been struggling to articulate a clearer understanding of for the last few years. It's a topic that will have real consequences regarding our eschatology and the how we minister to those around us who don't share in our faith.

HELL

I want to know what you guys think about the idea. Is it a place, is it a state of mind, is it a state of being, is it non-existence, etc...? Is it permanent or can you decide to leave by making the right choice? Is your fate, either within or without decided beforehand, is it even in your control? How will our thoughts on Hell inform how we relate to those outside the faith? How does it affect what kind of church you could pastor or attend? What happens if your ideas on hell conflict with your denominational doctrinal statements? Is there are any certainty to be had or is it all just opinions? What is the cost of being wrong?

I realize all those questions in that last paragraph would take millennia to answer, if indeed they actually can be answered. I don't expect to come up with some neat and tidy doctrine of hell here; I just want to hear what you all think when the idea of Hell is presented. I'd like to hear how your hermeneutics back up your opinion and what authors and teaching have influenced you. Once we have tossed around a lot of ideas concerning the nature of hell I would like to move into something more practical and talk about how our thoughts on hell influence how we evangelize and disciple those in our sphere of influence. How does it affect the gospel we preach and live if we tend towards universalism or annihilationism or whatever? What problems do you have with the more traditional or the more liberal views?

Finally, I would like to know how you would preach what you believe on the topic. Obviously a good measure of humility is deserved when dealing with a topic like this. What would you say from the pulpit, or in a classroom setting?

Tell me what you believe, why you believe it, and how firmly you believe it. I expect there are going to be some pretty varied opinions among us, so don't be bashful.

Love You All,

Coldstorageunit

Women in Leadership

I appreciate the opportunity to propose the topic of our next discussion. There are wise thoughts and wise people on this blog and it is an honour to wrestle with you. I'd like us to wrestle this month with a topic that is rather controversial to many people as I am very eager to hear all your thoughts on it. So here it goes.

Are certain gifts of leadership reserved by God for men and men only; gifts such as teaching and preaching? Can a woman lead men in the Christian context? Can a woman be the prime leader of a church? Can a wife be the leader in a home?

Are Paul's teachings on women in 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14 merely instructions for a time and culture that when understood in context do not need to be applied literally today? Or is there something to be said for the fact that Paul draws a distinction in the leadership roles of men and women in the early church? Why did Jesus have only male apostles?

I believe that Paul's instructions regarding women were true and had a purpose for their time as did Jesus surrounding himself with 12 male apostles, but that in reality when the New Testament is taken as a whole we see revolutionary treatment of women. This is true especially in the actions of Jesus such as his treatment of the Samaritan woman at the well.

Paul's instructions for women to be silent cannot be considered apart from his teaching that in Christ there is no longer male or female, and Jesus surrounding himself with 12 male apostles cannot be separated from the important leadership role women played in the early church and in Jesus' ministry on earth as well. Jesus first appeared to women after his resurrection and instructed them to go tell the men he was risen.

I believe that roles in the church and even in the home should be based on people's gifts and not on their gender. I believe that the progression shown by Jesus and the early church toward women was meant to keep progressing. I believe that many of our modern Christian churches are missing out on great leaders in their midst due to limiting the role of these gifted leaders because they are women.

I would follow and be taught by a female lead pastor. I follow my wife in the areas that God has gifted her, especially when I do not have the same gifts.

Your thoughts?

Love, tony tanti

The Case of the Troubling Trend

Great discussion on the last topic. And I'd like to extend a warm Holy Crap welcome to newcomer Underachiever (great username, J.)

Okay, here's the topic:

In my 3.15 decades, I've seen church trends come and go. Among them...

• I've seen the decline of evening service...
• I've seen the decline of the Wednesday night prayer meeting...
• I've seen the rise and fall of bus ministry (man, if your church didn't have a bus in the 80's you WEREN'T a church!)...
• I've seen the rise of small groups or care groups over "bible study".
  
  

These church programming trends seemed to add some kind of value to how the church operated but just augmented how church was done.

There is one church programming trend that really troubles me because it doesn't seem to enhance church ministries, it seems to change how we "do church" altogether.

I'm talking about the

seeker sensitive church

The gloves are off: I am unabashedly opposed to seeker sensitive church; I think it's just ChurchLite (great tasting, less filling) and I don't think it has a place in our ecclesionomy. I suspect there are similar viewpoints among my honored colleagues.

In our discussion, I'd like to talk about...

How would we define a seeker sensitive church? How does it look different than "traditional" (i.e., non-seeker sensitive) churches? What is the difference between a contemporary church and a seeker sensitive church? Is there a Biblical basis for changing church so dramatically? What value (if any) does the seeker sensitive church provide? What are the drawbacks of this kind of church? What is the church's role in evangelism? If it works, does that make it good? Lastly, I sense that this trend has hit a maturity and will be on the decline in the near future. What trend do you think will replace it? (i.e., where will all these new converts go when their seeker sensitive church is no longer seeker sensitive).

At the end of the day I think churches are annoyingly resistant to change... and I don't like that resistance. But this is a change many churches are embracing that really bothers me.

God's Guidance

Well, we got the ball rolling pretty good with that last discussion, and I'm looking forward to digging into this topic and seeing what you all think. I'm not sure how to frame the question so I'll put it several different ways. This should give a sense of where I'm coming from and we'll see where it goes from there:

How do you figure out God's will for your life? How do you discern His guidance? Can you be sure you are "in the center of His will" and what does that mean?

Is there one good path for your life or several good options (maybe with one that is best and others that are acceptable)? Do you believe God has a plan for your life? If so, is it set in stone? And how do you find it? Or is it flexible within certain parameters and so you have to interact with Him and chart a course together?

Do you picture God ahead of you on a certain path waiting for you to find Him or is He behind you asking you to lean on Him?

I realize there is the potential for this to go several different directions. We could branch off into the old Calvinism/Arminianism (and Openness) thing and certainly that has to come into play, but let's not get too sidetracked, at least at first. So I'd encourage you to share how you think about this from a Scriptural/theological perspective and also to be honest about how this stuff tends to play out in your experience.

I may be sketchy on my internet access the next couple weeks as I'm in the process of moving, but I look forward very much to reading and interacing with your thoughts and experiences in this regard.

Love, Fear

Members check-in

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If you are a new member, please put a comment under this post answering the following questions:

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Yeah, I'm sure there are better questions. Too bad.

Welcome to Holy Crap

Welcome to Holy Crap. This blog, hosted by Jon C. and Aaron H, (AKA "fear" and "trembling") invites members to participate in theological discussion.

The purpose of this blog is to generate dialogue on issues of debate -- not necessarily to form a conclusion but to create an understanding of other viewpoints... the old "iron sharpening iron" concept. Ultimately, we want to glorify God by sweating through the tough issues and coming out the other side of the debate with a clearer understanding of how He acts in the world.

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